6 Inning Starts + 6 Man Roration = Fewer Arm Problems

[moonslav59]

You do have to go through those game logs in more detail though. That June 10 11-3 game, for example, was tied 3-3 going to the bottom of the 7th.

You also have to consider who would have pitched those innings when we took Sale out early.

Probably Barnes, Hembree or Abad! Sound like fun?

Yes, I'm sure there were other similar games, and I mentioned that possibility as well as the chances we might have lost a game or 2 by doing so. I get it.

Maybe someday, when I have more time, I'll so a more thorough study.

It might turn out that we could only have shaved off 5-10 IP without serious risk of losing a game or two more. I might also find a game we might have won.

[moonslav59]

One thing to remember is - making the playoffs is good, and winning is good ... Sale allowed Farrell and the team to wallpaper over flaws with the rest of the rotation - and deploy the bullpen as effectively as they did all season.

After all, Porcello was the only other pitcher who provided consistent bulk. Pomeranz provided consistent quality without depth. Rodriguez just did not pitch enough period - same with Price. Fister was decent for a #5.

Sale's reliability allowed them to work around issues with the other 4 rotation spots. I mean yeah it'd be nice to manage Sale's workload a little bit more - but it is hard to say that they actually had that luxury.

Very good points. I do think that with's Smith and Workman's return and a full season from Maddox, we should be better and deeper in the pen. We could even add another arm, preferably a long type RP'er.

[OH FOY!]

That's why a guy like Bob Stanley is valuable. Kelly was a Starter his whole career, has a rubber arm, he should be used more for innings. 1 time through the order, is my philosophy with guys who were Starters, but have moved into BP role. Providing their stuff is good that day. That's why Managers who actually watch the games, get a feel for their Pitchers is important.
Most of the time you can see if a Pitcher has it that day or not.

[moonslav59]

That's why a guy like Bob Stanley is valuable. Kelly was a Starter his whole career, has a rubber arm, he should be used more for innings. 1 time through the order, is my philosophy with guys who were Starters, but have moved into BP role. Providing their stuff is good that day. That's why Managers who actually watch the games, get a feel for their Pitchers is important.
Most of the time you can see if a Pitcher has it that day or not.

Yes, I agree.

Kelly's FB is so hard, but it doesn't move much, so once through the line-up sounds like the upper limit.

[Kimmi]

It's all basically armchair wizards trying to reinvent the wheel.

There is a lot of merit to the idea of giving a starter some extra rest during the season, as there is merit to not burning out your bullpen in June. We all know that a manager must manage the marathon of a long season differently than he manages in September or in the post season.

I have no problem with throwing in a spot starter now and then to give a guy like Sale some extra rest if it will keep him stronger and better in October. That said, I was very much against skipping Sale's start at the end of the season when we had not yet clinched the division. Marathon vs sprint.

[Kimmi]

One thing to remember is - making the playoffs is good, and winning is good ... Sale allowed Farrell and the team to wallpaper over flaws with the rest of the rotation - and deploy the bullpen as effectively as they did all season.

After all, Porcello was the only other pitcher who provided consistent bulk. Pomeranz provided consistent quality without depth. Rodriguez just did not pitch enough period - same with Price. Fister was decent for a #5.

Sale's reliability allowed them to work around issues with the other 4 rotation spots. I mean yeah it'd be nice to manage Sale's workload a little bit more - but it is hard to say that they actually had that luxury.

Very good points sk.

[bosoxmal]

It's all basically armchair wizards trying to reinvent the wheel.

The wheel is broken. Pitchers can no longer go even close to 200 innings. Price was a whi bang until October ame around, And what is his post season record? Lousy. This whole thing (the history) can proably be traced back to Carl Hubbell and his screw bal. Mariano R. was almost always good for an inning only. Ever wonder why? And where do wheels belong in a conversation about pitcher;s and their arm problems?

[moonslav59]

The wheel is broken. Pitchers can no longer go even close to 200 innings. Price was a whi bang until October ame around, And what is his post season record? Lousy. This whole thing (the history) can proably be traced back to Carl Hubbell and his screw bal. Mariano R. was almost always good for an inning only. Ever wonder why? And where do wheels belong in a conversation about pitcher;s and their arm problems?

I don't get it either. Pitchers used to go very 4 days and go deeper in the games as well.

There were injuries then, but if it's all about IP, one would have expected more.

[harmony]

I don't get it either. Pitchers used to go very 4 days and go deeper in the games as well.

There were injuries then, but if it's all about IP, one would have expected more.

It’s hard to calculate the number of career-ending injuries in the days of 300-inning seasons. Perhaps some pitchers blew out their arms after consecutive seasons of 300+ innings at the minor league level.

The 300-inning pitcher at the MLB level could have been the product of survival of the fittest, not necessarily survival of the most gifted,

[moonslav59]

It’s hard to calculate the number of career-ending injuries in the days of 300-inning seasons. Perhaps some pitchers blew out their arms after consecutive seasons of 300+ innings at the minor league level.

The 300-inning pitcher at the MLB level could have been the product of survival of the fittest, not necessarily survival of the most gifted,

They might not have thrown as hard. They may not have thrown many breaking balls that stresses the arm further.

There were some great pitchers who were iron men at the same time.

Forget 300 innings. Ib Cy Young;s first few seasons he pitched over 400 for four straight seasons and 5 of 6. Not only did that not break him down, after those 6 seasons, he followed it up with 9 straight 300 IP seasons and 10 of 11. At ages 41 & 42, he pitched over 290 IP.

I guess that's why they call it the Cy Young Award!

In the last 40 years, a pitcher has gone over 300 IP: Phil Neikro twice and Steve Carlton once. When you look at the list of the 33 pitchers who went 275 or more, they almost all are great pitchers who had very long careers.

P Niekro x 3
Carlton x 3
Palmer
Dennis Leonard x 2
Blyleven
Dennis Martinez x 2
Charlie Hough
Clemens
Steve Rogers x 2
J Morris

Yes, you have the Fernando Valenzuela's who were burnt out by 27 and a couple one hit wonders, but most were great ones.

[moonslav59]

Only CC Sabathia has gone over 252 IP since 2008.

Verlander went 251 in 2011. He's still going strong.

In the last 10 years, these are the top single seasons IP by SP'ers:

(Look how many have been hurt)

All with 236+ IP in at least one season:

253 CC Sabathia x 3
251 Verlander x 3
251 Halladay x 2 (this decade only)
250 Felix x 3
249 Shields
248 Price
244 Cueto
242 Wainwright
238 D Haren
237 Carpenter
236 Kershaw

[sk7326]

The wheel is broken. Pitchers can no longer go even close to 200 innings. Price was a whi bang until October ame around, And what is his post season record? Lousy. This whole thing (the history) can proably be traced back to Carl Hubbell and his screw bal. Mariano R. was almost always good for an inning only. Ever wonder why? And where do wheels belong in a conversation about pitcher;s and their arm problems?

Pitchers throw a lot harder than in the olden days - some of that is evolutionary ... but I think some of it is industry thinking. Put another way, do you really need Old Hoss Radbourn when 3 pitchers can do the same job better?

[Bellhorn04]

The dilemma with Sale this season can be stated simply.
Yes, we could have shaved some innings off his arm.
In so doing, we would have risked not winning the division.

[Behindenemylines]

It's not up to the players union for a 6 man rotation. Also, the GM's wouldn't buy this. Starting pitchers have bloated salaries and now you are asking to increase the spots by 20%. This will drive up salaries, which the players would love, but GM's wouldn't and the cap wouldn't accommodate it. This is a moot point

How much money is tied up with pitchers who blow their arms out and teams need to find additional SPs any way? Whose to say that the number six starter wouldn't be a younger less expensive guy who a team is looking to limit innings. I don't know if you can make the claim that teams will be spending that much more. Grant it the only way this works if the rosters are expanded because benches are already shorter because most teams have the extra arm in the bullpen.

[harmony]

Pitchers throw a lot harder than in the olden days - some of that is evolutionary ... but I think some of it is industry thinking. Put another way, do you really need Old Hoss Radbourn when 3 pitchers can do the same job better?

Injuries may be an unintended consequence of the advent of the radar gun.