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Thread: COVID - Anything goes

  1. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredLynn View Post
    He asked me who would enforce a lockdown here. Its doable in other countries; it could have been done here. National Guard? Military? Local police? We have the resources to do it. We just didn't use them. If we had we would be looking at the pandemic in the rear view mirror. I think thats pretty undeniable.
    I think I would hate the idea of a full government-enforced lockdown.

    I think simply testing, full proper travel restrictions, and quarantining those who failed like was done in South Korea would have been a much better plan.

    And even with having missed that opportunity, more needs to be done until we are ready to re-open by whose ever standards you like. Maybe breaking up the extremely small and heavily consolidated meat-packing industry and some relief from banks with regards to deferred mortgage payment and loans. However, this does leave a huge issue with those who rent, who might even be in greater need of some help...

  2. #797
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    I think I would hate the idea of a full government-enforced lockdown.

    I think simply testing, full proper travel restrictions, and quarantining those who failed like was done in South Korea would have been a much better plan.

    And even with having missed that opportunity, more needs to be done until we are ready to re-open by whose ever standards you like. Maybe breaking up the extremely small and heavily consolidated meat-packing industry and some relief from banks with regards to deferred mortgage payment and loans. However, this does leave a huge issue with those who rent, who might even be in greater need of some help...
    The problem with making it voluntary is that there are too many idiots running around. The Asian cultures are much different than here, obviously. They are much more willing to sacrifice personal freedom. Look at the pictures of the morons on the beaches congregating without a care in the world...and the worshipers who congregate and bring infections back to their community....and the parties...and the bars. I don't like the idea of being forced to stay home either, but I understand the need.

  3. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredLynn View Post
    The problem with making it voluntary is that there are too many idiots running around. The Asian cultures are much different than here, obviously. They are much more willing to sacrifice personal freedom. Look at the pictures of the morons on the beaches congregating without a care in the world...and the worshipers who congregate and bring infections back to their community....and the parties...and the bars. I don't like the idea of being forced to stay home either, but I understand the need.
    So ... like we have now?

  4. #799
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    So ... like we have now?
    Its voluntary now...and its not working as well as it could. Furthermore, its way late in the process. Not too late, but very late. We could still conquer this virus with a mandatory enforced lockdown.....it will never happen though.

  5. #800
    You clearly haven't been paying attention. The president does not have the constitutional authority to force any governor to order a shutdown of their state period. Secondly the president does not have the constitutional authority to order the US Military under Posse Comitatus to enforce local curfews. That is a civilian law enforcement function and expressly forbidden by federal law. Third, any premature lockdown order when there had been no deaths would.have resulted in an injunction. Courts have already ruled that imminent threat must be actual not theoretical. The time you wanted the President to shutdown the economy the threat was still theoretical. No one from the CDC or HHS had recommended shutting down the economy at that time. Moreover your claims that earlier shutdown would have saved lives is based on a theoretical model which you yourself admitted was inexact science.

  6. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elktonnick View Post
    You clearly haven't been paying attention. The president does not have the constitutional authority to force any governor to order a shutdown of their state period. Secondly the president does not have the constitutional authority to order the US Military under Posse Comitatus to enforce local curfews. That is a civilian law enforcement function and expressly forbidden by federal law. Third, any premature lockdown order when there had been no deaths would.have resulted in an injunction. Courts have already ruled that imminent threat must be actual not theoretical. The time you wanted the President to shutdown the economy the threat was still theoretical. No one from the CDC or HHS had recommended shutting down the economy at that time. Moreover your claims that earlier shutdown would have saved lives is based on a theoretical model which you yourself admitted was inexact science.
    I think the President's authority to activate military on US soil is very limited. It is up to governor's to activate National Guard in their states.
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Chaim, you are in the big leagues now. Drawing 10,000 fans a game is not going to cut it, and people don’t buy tickets to Fenway to talk about the Farm

    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    "Relief pitchers are a crapshoot." No, the truth is "Crapshoot pitchers are relievers."

  7. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elktonnick View Post
    You clearly haven't been paying attention. The president does not have the constitutional authority to force any governor to order a shutdown of their state period. Secondly the president does not have the constitutional authority to order the US Military under Posse Comitatus to enforce local curfews. That is a civilian law enforcement function and expressly forbidden by federal law. Third, any premature lockdown order when there had been no deaths would.have resulted in an injunction. Courts have already ruled that imminent threat must be actual not theoretical. The time you wanted the President to shutdown the economy the threat was still theoretical. No one from the CDC or HHS had recommended shutting down the economy at that time. Moreover your claims that earlier shutdown would have saved lives is based on a theoretical model which you yourself admitted was inexact science.

    Is that really true? It seems to me that at one point, the Federal government took charge of law enforcement, namely in the Militia Act of 1792 (and subsequent updates).

    Obviously a lot has changed since then, but sometimes these outdated laws just get left alone and aren’t enforced, like the anti-adultery laws that were brought up before on some thread and were originally put in place by Puritanical governments in some cases...

  8. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    I think I would hate the idea of a full government-enforced lockdown.
    The people living in countries where this had been undertaken would no doubt agree with you.
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Chaim, you are in the big leagues now. Drawing 10,000 fans a game is not going to cut it, and people don’t buy tickets to Fenway to talk about the Farm

    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    "Relief pitchers are a crapshoot." No, the truth is "Crapshoot pitchers are relievers."

  9. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by FredLynn View Post
    Its voluntary now...and its not working as well as it could. Furthermore, its way late in the process. Not too late, but very late. We could still conquer this virus with a mandatory enforced lockdown.....it will never happen though.
    Wake up dude. READ!

    It would not work because #1 ... Its unconstitutional.

    You guys forget your own bullshit. When Cuomo talked about a joint NY, NJ, & Conn lockdown early on in late March early April, then Trump began to talk about it, YOU ALL LOST YOUR SHIT saying it was Unconstitutional.

    You actually happened to be right, for all the wrong reasons. Trump NEVER had the Constitutional authority to lock down a single state, but you wanted to squeal about it.
    You did.

    Now... you want to squeal about Trump not calling for a national lockdown?

    How many phases would we "lock down for?"
    What would happen to the economy and state budgets?
    How would people survive?
    Would the U.S. government just start cutting checks every month to individuals, businesses, and states?
    How many TRILLIONS would be added to the Debt?
    Would it be sustainable for 4 waves??? 2 years?

    Are you high, or just a bit slow?
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    Calm down. I've been tamed.

  10. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    BTW, what is the plan by Italy, Spain, UK, France et.al. for a second wave?
    ^ So, no one knows the answer to this?
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Chaim, you are in the big leagues now. Drawing 10,000 fans a game is not going to cut it, and people don’t buy tickets to Fenway to talk about the Farm

    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    "Relief pitchers are a crapshoot." No, the truth is "Crapshoot pitchers are relievers."

  11. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by FredLynn View Post
    Just to be accurate, I do not 'hate Trump". What I do hate is his mismanagement of the pandemic. While the president does not have the authority to lock down states he could certainly have strongly encouraged governors to do so-especially in the most densely populated states. You are right that perhaps states like Wyoming or Montana did not need to go into total lockdown, but NYC did; LA did; Boston did. He also could have invoked the DPA much earlier in preparation for this. There is no logical reason why we were so unprepared for this. There was no reason for PPE shortages, testing shortages, or a lack of a unified federal plan. His handling of this was abysmal from the beginning and it continues to be awful. Its clear to me that he is much more concerned about getting re-elected than saving human lives.
    The logical reason is no gov't is prepared for every contingency. There was a unified federal plan you just aren't aware exactly what such plans entail. Federal planning is setting up the mechanisms to manage the crisis. They are not specific step by step procedures to be taken during every hour or moment in that crisis. Crises are way too complex and varied. Again having been involved for over thirty years in emergency action planning at the federal state and county level no.plan survives first contact with the enemy. It is factually inaccurate to say there was no plan.

  12. #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elktonnick View Post
    You clearly haven't been paying attention. The president does not have the constitutional authority to force any governor to order a shutdown of their state period. Secondly the president does not have the constitutional authority to order the US Military under Posse Comitatus to enforce local curfews. That is a civilian law enforcement function and expressly forbidden by federal law. Third, any premature lockdown order when there had been no deaths would.have resulted in an injunction. Courts have already ruled that imminent threat must be actual not theoretical. The time you wanted the President to shutdown the economy the threat was still theoretical. No one from the CDC or HHS had recommended shutting down the economy at that time. Moreover your claims that earlier shutdown would have saved lives is based on a theoretical model which you yourself admitted was inexact science.
    The National Guard could easily enforce a shutdown. And I have already written many times here that the president doesn't have the authority to shut down states-thats in the hands of the governors. I have also written that had Trump strongly encouraged the governors to take decisive action or risk consequences nearly every governor would likely have taken action much sooner. You do not know what the CDC or HHS recommended since you were not at those meetings; thats why an investigation is necessary. And as for saving lives had we started earlier mitigation that is simply undeniable. The only question is how many....two models indicate that 83-90% of live lost would have been saved. Look, if New Zealand and S Korea could do it, we could have done it too. Trump blew it. He listened to the wrong people. He didn't even ramp up test kit production or PPE production. He did nothing for weeks to months, with the consequences of his inaction readily visible now.

  13. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    ^ So, no one knows the answer to this?
    Probably not.

    I just hope our government is paying attention so they can duplicate it if it works and properly modify it if it doesn’t.

    We do have the advantage of being fast followers. Hopefully this is not ignored...

  14. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Sox75 View Post
    Wake up dude. READ!

    It would not work because #1 ... Its unconstitutional.

    You guys forget your own bullshit. When Cuomo talked about a joint NY, NJ, & Conn lockdown early on in late March early April, then Trump began to talk about it, YOU ALL LOST YOUR SHIT saying it was Unconstitutional.

    You actually happened to be right, for all the wrong reasons. Trump NEVER had the Constitutional authority to lock down a single state, but you wanted to squeal about it.
    You did.

    Now... you want to squeal about Trump not calling for a national lockdown?

    How many phases would we "lock down for?"
    What would happen to the economy and state budgets?
    How would people survive?
    Would the U.S. government just start cutting checks every month to individuals, businesses, and states?
    How many TRILLIONS would be added to the Debt?
    Would it be sustainable for 4 waves??? 2 years?

    Are you high, or just a bit slow?
    These folks are quite the characters, They now complain that Trump is not a dictator.

  15. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredLynn View Post
    The National Guard could easily enforce a shutdown. And I have already written many times here that the president doesn't have the authority to shut down states-thats in the hands of the governors. I have also written that had Trump strongly encouraged the governors to take decisive action or risk consequences nearly every governor would likely have taken action much sooner. You do not know what the CDC or HHS recommended since you were not at those meetings; thats why an investigation is necessary. And as for saving lives had we started earlier mitigation that is simply undeniable. The only question is how many....two models indicate that 83-90% of live lost would have been saved. Look, if New Zealand and S Korea could do it, we could have done it too. Trump blew it. He listened to the wrong people. He didn't even ramp up test kit production or PPE production. He did nothing for weeks to months, with the consequences of his inaction readily visible now.

    Whether or not they could enforce one isn’t the point. It’s a bad plan for multiple reasons. And was NEVER going to be put in place in an election year. (The irony there is, if it worked, too many would have considered it a massive overreaction and it would definitely have been used against Trump despite the number of lives it saved.)

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