I think that Bradley is easily the best defensive outfielder currently on the 40 man. Back when Victorino was reasonably healthy an argument could be made on his behalf. Of course he probably has never had Bradley's arm.
Bradley is very good but he is not even the best CF I've seen play for the Sox. That would be Fred Lynn.
Last edited by Spudboy; 08-20-2014 at 08:56 AM.
Differentiating among great fielders is largely a matter of opinion as metrics are not reliable to make such differentiaion in a definitive manner, so there is no "proof". The metrics will separate the good from the bad and the bad from the average, but they don't reliably differentiate within those groups.
Blair is right at the top of the list of CFers that I have seen. He did it for a long time too. The Orioles of that era had 3 fielders that were among the best ever at their positions-- Brooks Robinson at 3B and Mark Belanger at SS were the other 2. Back to CFers, Mays was amazing and I only saw his last 5 years with the Giants. Curt Flood was a great fielder too. Freddie Lynn was spectacular- a human highlight reel. Darren Lewis was outstanding too. Fred, I realize that being an NL guy in the 1950's that you probably didn,t get a chance to see much of Dom DiMaggio. My dad told me that he was better than Joe D.
As for Duke Snider, anyone who thinks that he was just a one way player doesn't know what he is talking about. The debates in the 50's about Mantle , Mays and Snider were not just about hitting. While Mays was acknowledged to be the best fielder of the 3, it is my understanding that many considered Snider to be a better fielder than Mantle, and Mantle was pretty good at patrolling Yankee Stadium's expansive center field.
Bradley will never get the chance to be considered in the company of these greats unless he can hit enough to stay on the field for a number of years.
Last edited by a700hitter; 08-20-2014 at 01:34 PM. Reason: gramamtical and other edits
The King of TalkSox has Spoken.
Originally Posted by a700hitter
Its is the hardest thing to do in sports: hit a baseball. Bradley will have to find a hitting stroke quickly because the more reps Betts gets in CF the better he will become. Betts might not ever be as good as JBJ in CF, but if he can hit and hold his own in CF he will move ahead of JBJ if he already hasn't on the depth chart. Don't forget the Sox are also making a run at Castillo. Sad to say, but JBJ's time may have already passed.
Well I may be the only person on this board to think this and say this but I really think that the Sox outfield is a complete mess. I realize that there are "auditions" going on as we speak and that the roster is fluid. However, there is a very good chance that all three of the starting outfielders in 2015 are already on the roster.
"Can you believe it?" Well, yes. Yes I can. And it worries me.
I make no bones about being a Danial Nava fan and I hope that he is still with the Sox in 2015. I know that he is what people call a platoon player and this limits his value to the Sox. Big deal! Who among the other candidates contributes more offensively than Nava? Go ahead and laugh but look at what he has done this year. Off to a miserable start out of ST he went down to AAA and found his bat. He is not a power hitter but can be relied upon to work the count and to get on base ( where he admittedly has some issues! ) at a very good clip. He has worked at becoming a decent and even above average defensive left fielder ( at least at Fenway ) and is now becoming less of an anxiety producing right fielder. And he is a good citizen with a low dollar contract. I say keep him!
Victorino - He says he will be ready for ST after having an operation on his back! I think they should have given him new hamstring muscles too but that did not happen. His return to everyday playing is not guaranteed and even if he does make it "back" ( pun intended ) next season, what will he be able to contribute? He's not exactly a young man and his health always seems to be an issue now. Too bad. I say that he is done being a contributing member of this team.
Bradley - another improbable contributor in 2015. Great, great glove and arm. But he has actually become worse of a hitter this year and unlike an injured player where it can be reasonably predicted when he will return to form no one knows IF Bradley will ever hit well enough to play regularly in the bigs. Another question mark.
Betts - way to early to be able to slot him in as the starting CF in 2015. He was raking this year in Portland and Pawtucket. Wooptie freakin doo. That means nothing unless he can hit in the majors. And of course he still has to lean most of what it takes to be a skilled CF and not be a defensive liability. He's young, athletic, and apparently gifted. Unless he rakes between now and the end of the season, I say he starts 2015 in Pawtucket. Another question mark!
Craig - I'm not convinced that his now chronically injured foot will heal and that he will regain his great offensive form of the past 2.5 of 3.0 years. I hope so! And what if his loss of offensive production is not entirely attributable to his lame foot? Can he even field? Can he run well enough to play left? Do we need another part time 1st baseman? Oye. Another question mark!
Cespedes - This guy is not very skilled defensively. Yes he has speed and a cannon of an arm. But he does clumsy things in the field and screws up as much as he makes sensational plays. His offensive numbers have declined each year since he came to the bigs three years ago. He's 29 and is still not a finished product. He does not show much patience at the plate and has only hit a little better than Bradley in the two weeks that he has been with the Sox. His promise of power is intoxicating so he will most likely be in the starting lineup next season. Of course there is talk that he may be part of a big trade for another big need. Who knows? I doubt that the Sox sign him long term before he hits free agency. He is just not what the Sox look for ( except for the power ).
Castillo - this guy may be the Sox consolation prize for underbidding on Abreu. He seems to have the skills of a AA player. The bidding for his services are reported to be 50-60 mil for 5 years. I say pass. At best another question mark.
Holt - I have no idea what position he will be playing in 2015 but I do hope that it is with the Sox. He hits and has decent speed. He has positional versatility. He's cheap. I hope that the Sox keep him. Finding another good lead-off hitter will just be another nightmare.
The Sox outfield is a mess. Way too many question marks to be confident that a good outfield will be run out everyday next season.
Combined with the disaster that the left side infield continues to be and the absence of top of the rotation proven starting pitching, the Sox FO has a lot to do to get back into the post season hunt in 2015.
first of all it is SnIder, not Snyder. Secondly he was an outstanding center fielder. He had steel springs in his legs according to Branch Rickey, one of the greatest judge of talent in the history of baseball. On May 31, 1954 in Philadelphia he made a catch that many writers in the Fourth Estate who were present called it the greatest catch of all time. He made many terrific plays. Where you got that info that he wasn't a good centerfielder astounds me....HE WAS A GREAT DEFENSIVE CENTER FIELDER. He hurt his knee his last year in Brooklyn and was never the same after that as a great fly chaser. I go back even longer than you do---and thank goodness you can say you're younger than I am---but the men I mentioned was terrific in their jobs. Yes Bradley is a great defensive CF but his lack of hitting skill will wipe out his career as anything but a fourth or fifth outfielder. If the Red Sox are really determined to contend next season they can just forget it if they plan on sticking Bradley in center and that total choker and bust Xander Bogaerts back at shortstop, and from what I read this morning that is exactly what Cherington is planning----about the contending away.
Spud, you paint a bleak picture, but I think each of your concerns is valid.
The King of TalkSox has Spoken.
Well yes, if you assume that EVERY SINGLE outfielder WON'T PAN OUT. Of course it would be a mess.
We could bring in Giancarlo Stanton and it's possible a truck could run over his foot and he never plays a meaningful inning with the Red Sox.
So the Red Sox should throw in the towel because any move they make could backfire or the player won't adjust to the limelight of Boston, right?
I also find it ironic that out of all the Red Sox outfielders, you have the most confidence in Daniel Nava who as you put it, is a platoon player at best.
The one thing that I do know - last to first can happen. And so can first to last. Just because we've experienced both extremes doesn't mean that I'm giving up on the Red Sox before the next season even starts.
A LOT of moves can still be made at the Winter meetings, in the offseason, in free agency, and even during the preseason.
Fred, we know that any opinion on the defense of old time players is merely anectdotal, but I trust Bill James. Here is what he says:
"As long as the general population is passive, apathetic, diverted to consumerism or hatred of the vulnerable, then the powerful can do as they please, and those who survive will be left to contemplate the outcome." - Noam Chomsky
I trust my dad who saw them all play. James probably never saw Snider. He definitely never saw DiMaggio.
The King of TalkSox has Spoken.
Well you may trust Bill James since you think he may know more about baseball than you do, but I know more than he does. I played it, coached it, scouted it and didn't spend my time on the computer with sabermetrics which while it has its advantages is completely bankrupt in judging a player's heart, guts and balls, and it cannot project how a player will do because it can not judge those three aspects of a ballplayer. I would also bet James never saw Snider play center field at Ebbets Field where because of the compact nature of the place kind of inhibited the
Duke's outstanding outfield instincts. When he played at the Polo Grounds, or in St. Louis or Milwaukee where center field was more spacious he reveled defensively and made some of his greatest defensive catches.
The whole point of Moneyball was that traditional experts (this includes scouts and coaches in particular) rated players on too many 'intangibles' (form, and yes, 'heart, guts' etc.)--intangibles that formed traditions from which experienced scouts couldn't escape (including tactics like the bunt, various sacrifices, moving the runner over, etc.-- that were demonstrably counterproductive). These traditions are also inarguable--those who believe in the Giants of the Old Days, or that 'heart' and other 'intangibles' are important cannot be disputed, since they do not admit anything as evidence against those beliefs. That's fine, since we're watching sports--and such traditional intangibles are part of our enjoyment (we love the beautiful swing, even if it doesn't result in hits, the sacrifice, the notion of a clutch hitter, hot streaks, the notion that certain mediocre players are 'winners' etc.--even though these things are no more 'real' than a ballet or movie.)
And Billy Beans has the world championships to validate his method;-) . Baseball is great for copycats. If someone has some success, other follow. The latest fad is the ridiculous overuse of the over- shift.
The King of TalkSox has Spoken.
We have a guy on our team that explodes your whole theory that heart and intangibles don't matter (if that is your point). That would be Dustin Pedroia who has no plus natural tool. He's not fast. He doesn't have a very stong arm. He doesn't have a lot of power. And his diminutive size doesn't help either. He was drafted with the 64th pick. No one projected him as an MVP type player. His physical abilities just did not dictate such a projection. However, when you watch the guy on a daily basis, you realize that his desire and his exceptional instincts make him a great player. Heart, desire and innate baseball IQ all matter and they are very difficult to scout.
Last edited by a700hitter; 08-21-2014 at 12:48 PM.
The King of TalkSox has Spoken.
I can't believe that it is not even September yet. This season has seemed like an eternity. This is what it is like when the last meaningful game you played was Opening Day. The wears on you. You can see wearing effect of losing on the field. They are playing sloppier ball lately. It is tough to play all out every night when the games have meant nothing for months.
The King of TalkSox has Spoken.
Most of these guys are playing for their jobs next year. Every single starter is auditioning for the 2015 rotation. WMB, Xander, Bradley, Vazquez and Betts aren't guaranteed spots here next year. Cespedes and Koji are playing for their next contracts. Ross too probably.
Besides Ortiz, Pedroia and Tazawa, who has nothing to play for?
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