^This one.Originally Posted by User Name?
^This one.
We miss you Mike.
Who doesn't like overachievers? After all, that's what Bogaerts and Betts are - or at least what you call guys who crush levels they shouldn't be able to compete at normally.
Coyle is an interesting guy - 30 homeruns in the last 140+ games is nothing to sneeze at. At the same time, the frame is tiny, and looking at the scouting reports there is a guy who tries to hit like Dustin Pedroia without that freakish ability to get on top of high cheese. He is an interesting guy - both to watch and as potential trade part. There are probably a few places where he could play an acceptable major league 2B right now.
Since I was not on the board pre-2013, I don't know how smitten the community was with Middlebrooks. At the time, I was skeptical because he was chasing everything and getting results. Without being a Nomar or Vlad sort of gift for squaring up pitches, that is a hard way to be. But he was such a good athlete that some late blooming made sense. I certainly thought the org and fans were hasty anointing Will as the solution - and his inability to improve himself has been fatal combined with the injuries. Reddick is an interesting case too - unlike Will he does lots of things at a legitimately good major league level. He just has poor plate discipline - although in Oakland a couple of years ago he improved things enough to allow the total package to shine through. Frankly, that was my wish for Middlebrooks. He was never going to be a Mike Napoli at the plate - but if he could have worked on his defense and been able to produce a .310 sort of OBP with a lot of power behind it - that is a solid starter. But alas. Once he declined to take some AFL reps I was done. That said, if he figured some things out in SD, I would not be stunned - good athletes are still worth betting on.
Guys don't get promoted without some performance under the tools - that's why my crush now is Rafael Devers. Clearly, there is still a ton to be written about his future - he could flame out. But you talk about a guy who put up a .900 OPS in his first taste of pro ball as the third youngest kid there, who is already 6 feet, 200 lbs and will be 18 the entirety of next season, and whose power and athleticism have left scouts shaking their head. He's the guy in the system who could be a future MVP. (Margot's upside is MVP production but voters like chicks dig the long ball)
BTW: It's the funny part of the Sandoval signing. By no means should a big league club not fill a vacancy at 3B because of some 17 year old who just finished short season ball. HOWEVER, there is a small but legitimate possibility that Devers could be the sort of freight train which will force the org to rethink the 3B situation much sooner than anybody is thinking. I am excited.
Yes I read it. I just disagree with it. Tools alone aren't everything, if you scout without an eye on a player's ability to think, learn, and improve and focus just on the athletics, you're going to get a lot of bigtime busts. I'll take a guy who's learning to produce well with less in the toolbox over yet another Will Middlebrooks or Wily Mo Pena.
Last edited by Dojji; 02-10-2015 at 10:53 AM.
If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.
What exactly do you disagree with?
What i said in the post was that, contrary to what scouts initially thought about Coyle, he has the makings of an MLB regular, not because of his tools, but because of his production and approach. I then explained the idea that tool-based scouting has taken renewed significance the last couple of years because of the current need to focus on upside. I am literally agreeing with everything you posted. So what do you disagree with again?
We miss you Mike.
What I disagree with is the overall focus on tools and projectability when the real need in prospect analysis is to figure out who's going to reach their ceiling and who isn't. Having a toolsy prospect who doesn't have that extra gear in his head is like owning billions of dollars worth of mineral rights on the Moon. It's nice on paper, but has no real value to anyone.
If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.
That's not my opinion though. It is an identifiable trend, and a fact. Whether you or I disagree with it has no impact on whether or not this is how the industry is currently functioning.
We miss you Mike.
And I think that's why the industry is whiffing on a lot of these kids. There's still no way to scout the head tool. Until there is, I'll keep looking for prospects who don't grab the national spotlight but have been quietly getting the job done. That's one of the things Billy Beane got famous for in the first place.
Incidentally, could we stow the futility talk when half of my "guys" never even get the chance to test the waters one way or another? Poor Dan Butler still has the makings of a very solid big league backup if he can win through on the Nats. A lot of the guys I pull for wind up like that, maybe they could have done something, maybe not, but the team won't even give them a look. Coyle could easily wind up like that as well, stuck behind better players, but I think that if the stars line up and he gets a decent chance he has the ability to impress someone.
Last edited by Dojji; 02-10-2015 at 11:11 AM.
If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.
Don't make me give you a list of "Dojji-type" prospects. That's not a record you want to evaluate here, my friend.
We miss you Mike.
Why don't you go ahead. Get it out of your system. The only guy I'm really ashamed of is Lars Anderson, and at the time, everyone else was excited about him too.
If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.
I'm just messing with you man. Write up your obscure prospects as much as you want. Besides, Daniel Nava was a huge win for you, based exactly on the type of evaluation you're professing in the thread.
We miss you Mike.
I must say that I always enjoy reading Dojji's prospect related posts.
There is usually nothing wrong with what he says about the guys. Both the ones that make it, and the ones that don't make it.
Scouting and talent evaluation will always have a large dose of subjectivity in it. None of the pros at it are perfect.
Last edited by Spudboy; 02-10-2015 at 12:04 PM.
Dojji has been right about other players as well. Mike Napoli comes to mind. We all gave Dojji crap when he had his man crush on Nap.
Aside from injury, Napoli has been most of what Dojji said about him.
Of course there was that 3rd baseman for the Royals, I believe. What ever happened to that guy?
Yeah but Dojji was hyping Napoli as a catcher, and that was everyone's big problem with the idea.
We miss you Mike.
Tug Hulett, and lol.
We miss you Mike.
Tug was a classicMark Tehan was another one I remember him crushing on hard. I like it tho cause he usually brings in some good info on guys that don't get a lot of the spotlight. Nava is by far is his Championship belt lol
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