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Thread: Dave Dombrowski

  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Panda was a Ben signing.
    DD has not won a world series, just two division championships after two last place finishes. I was just going along with DD bashing on this board.

    Fuck DD also for trading Babe Ruth. You KNOW that he would have done it if he was alive back then.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    DD has not won a world series, just two division championships after two last place finishes. I was just going along with DD bashing on this board.

    Fuck DD also for trading Babe Ruth. You KNOW that he would have done it if he was alive back then.
    Wait - was Larry Lucchino alive back then? he must have been because he is responsible for every bad move that Ben made during his tenure. Eventually more people will come over to the dark side and go along with us losers in thinking that we have a pretty good GM who is very interested in winning now and in the future.

  3. #243
    Got a perfect deal for DD. Pedey and nunez for Strohman. Toronto would be falling all over themselves to make that deal. They have never seen a broken down on his last legs or mending from his multiple injuries player they didn't like. Team is chock full of them. Geez Toronto would probably throw money into the deal to pull it off. Pedey has got trade clauses to deal with. But what the heck. Toronto will beg him to come.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    DD has not won a world series, just two division championships after two last place finishes. I was just going along with DD bashing on this board.

    Fuck DD also for trading Babe Ruth. You KNOW that he would have done it if he was alive back then.
    Dombrowaki has won a WS. Just not with Boston...

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    DD has not won a world series
    https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/FLA/1997.shtml
    If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by reYoukilis View Post
    I'm going to have to have proof on that one. If you're right I'll no longer stick up for Cherington because I thought he did a good job whos talent he drafted turned out to be good picks, including Shaw. I also don't think he was responsible for Panda or Hanley, but was pressured into it for lack of patience.
    Ownership loved Jon Lester. As far as I'm concerned any GM who couldn't convince ownership to open up their wallets to retain the services of a power ace and one of the most dependable starters in all of major league baseball, and a beloved hometown hero who had played a role in not one but two Championships and was beloved by the fans, for a price tag that it would turn out was still under market for a man of his talents, didn't do his job very well. A GM has to have the smarts and persuasive ability to prevent ownership and upper management from backing him into a corner. Even if lowballing Lester wasn't Cherington's idea, as general manager he has to be able to stop ownership from screwing up his rotation with their own bad ideas.

    It the goal was to maintain competitive teams in 2015 and onward, there was no reason for Cherington to let himself get pushed around when it came to Jon Lester's salary. The contract Lester got proved to be an absolute bargain, substantially less than other top pitchers have commanded since, and I have no doubt that if we'd been in on Lester for similar money, either before the trade or in free agency, he'd be here right now.

    The inability to challenge or change ownership directives when they're destructive to the team is the sign of a GM who can't command the respect of ownership and lowballing Lester to that extent shows that either he doesn't have a finger on the pulse of the free agency market, or is unable to argue against someone in the organization who doesn't understand free agent pitchers.

    And even if it was ownership's doing, or Lucchino's you have to think that DD or Theo would have been able to talk them out of it. We certainly know Theo was willing to go to great lengths to try to change ownership's mind on what he felt was a bad idea, if you remember his reaction to the Beckett trade. That's part of a GM's job, to make his call and stand his ground. Needless to say, if Cherington did value Lester's role as a dependable top of the rotation starter, he didn't defend it properly. Whether through lack of understanding of the free agent pitching market, or simple lack of balls, either way it shows the lack of a skillset a good GM needs to have.

    Lester was the lynchpin of the rotation, it was always going to be easier to rebuild the rotation with him than without him, and getting him for an under-market deal in which he'd easily pay for himself should have been more than feasible. You absolutely CAN make that sales pitch to an owner if you're willing to make a game effort to wear the pants in the relationship.

    If Cherington couldn't do that, if he couldn't talk back to ownership and change their minds on key areas of team construction, then he wasn't actually a GM at all, much less a good one, and we're better off without him. General manager is considered an executive position for a reason, if Cherington was treating the job as advisory only, then he was overpromoted and is now back at an appropriate level for his talents.
    Last edited by Dojji; 07-12-2018 at 08:49 AM.
    If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.

  7. #247
    DD was a key contributor to their other Championship too, thought he Drafted Beckett, and AJ Burnett, and Signed in the International Draft, Miguel Cabrera before he left the Marlins.
    Forgot he Drafted Adrian Gonzalez too.
    Last edited by OH FOY!; 07-12-2018 at 08:52 AM.

  8. #248
    What's that? DD has a clue how to draft and develop prospects? Wow!

    To listen to this forum you'd think that such things would be so much Urdu to him.
    If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.

  9. #249
    I wish that I had been bright enough to phrase what you have phrased so very well. Not enjoying the criticism of Cherington is one thing but trying to compare what the two have done doesn't seem particularly fair to me. Good luck to Ben Cherington but as I have said many times over, I am really happy with what Dombrowski has done and regardless of the criticism aimed at him here personally I think that he is the guy for us now and moving into the future as well.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
    Ownership loved Jon Lester. As far as I'm concerned any GM who couldn't convince ownership to open up their wallets to retain the services of a power ace and one of the most dependable starters in all of major league baseball, and a beloved hometown hero who had played a role in not one but two Championships and was beloved by the fans, for a price tag that it would turn out was still under market for a man of his talents, didn't do his job very well. A GM has to have the smarts and persuasive ability to prevent ownership and upper management from backing him into a corner. Even if lowballing Lester wasn't Cherington's idea, as general manager he has to be able to stop ownership from screwing up his rotation with their own bad ideas.

    It the goal was to maintain competitive teams in 2015 and onward, there was no reason for Cherington to let himself get pushed around when it came to Jon Lester's salary. The contract Lester got proved to be an absolute bargain, substantially less than other top pitchers have commanded since, and I have no doubt that if we'd been in on Lester for similar money, either before the trade or in free agency, he'd be here right now.

    The inability to challenge or change ownership directives when they're destructive to the team is the sign of a GM who can't command the respect of ownership and lowballing Lester to that extent shows that either he doesn't have a finger on the pulse of the free agency market, or is unable to argue against someone in the organization who doesn't understand free agent pitchers.

    And even if it was ownership's doing, or Lucchino's you have to think that DD or Theo would have been able to talk them out of it. We certainly know Theo was willing to go to great lengths to try to change ownership's mind on what he felt was a bad idea, if you remember his reaction to the Beckett trade. That's part of a GM's job, to make his call and stand his ground. Needless to say, if Cherington did value Lester's role as a dependable top of the rotation starter, he didn't defend it properly. Whether through lack of understanding of the free agent pitching market, or simple lack of balls, either way it shows the lack of a skillset a good GM needs to have.

    Lester was the lynchpin of the rotation, it was always going to be easier to rebuild the rotation with him than without him, and getting him for an under-market deal in which he'd easily pay for himself should have been more than feasible. You absolutely CAN make that sales pitch to an owner if you're willing to make a game effort to wear the pants in the relationship.

    If Cherington couldn't do that, if he couldn't talk back to ownership and change their minds on key areas of team construction, then he wasn't actually a GM at all, much less a good one, and we're better off without him. General manager is considered an executive position for a reason, if Cherington was treating the job as advisory only, then he was overpromoted and is now back at an appropriate level for his talents.
    Great post, as always, but my guess is every good GM has had times they were not able to convince ownership of something they really wanted.

    While you can't believe everything you read, it was widely stated that ownership did not want to sign any 30 year old pitcher to a long term deal. That might have also been why Ben passed on Scherzer to sign HRam and Pablo.

    The change in ownership philosophy, if indeed it was a change, that allowed DD to sign Price should be a factor when comparing recent Sox GMs.


    Last edited by moonslav59; 07-12-2018 at 10:39 AM.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Great post, as always, but my guess is every good GM has had times they were not able to convince ownership of something they really wanted.


    While that's true, not being able to talk a very reasonable owner (Henry is widely regarded as one of the better, more openminded owners in all of North American professional sports) and make the case from a baseball standpoint isn't the mark of a great GM.

    The more you blame ownership for things going wrong under Cherington, the more you admit that Cherington was not up to one of the crucial aspects of a GM's job -- managing his relationship with ownership and higher execs.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    While you can't believe everything you read, it was widely stated that ownership did not want to sign any 30 year old pitcher to a long term deal. That might have also been why Ben passed on Scherzer to sign HRam and Pablo.
    And I just have to ask the question, why couldn't Cherington convince Henry to make an exception for a fan favorite, 2x world series champion with no known health issues, a proven record as a rock-solid and extremely durable starter, and one of the most well known and iconic pitchers of the recent Red Sox era who Red Sox fans would absolutely travel far and wide for the chance to see?

    You can make the argument based on conventional baseball wisdom, medical infomation AND love of money. Not to mention that Jon actually got a late start to his career thanks to the cancer treatment back in 06 and has a lot less wear and tear on his arm than a conventional power lefty.

    Why can't the most consistently effective Red Sox starter since Pedro Martinez (Sale's working on beating him here, but will need a few years to lock it down), with, again, absolutely no known health issues, get an exception to a rule that should only ever be followed in general, and evaluated on a case by case basis?

    While I agree with that policy as a general rule, not being flexible enough to make exceptions when it makes sense does not reflect well on either ownership or the GM that can't talk them into it.
    Last edited by Dojji; 07-12-2018 at 11:35 AM.
    If history tells us anything, the path to redeption for any bad baseball team is marked with a deep rotation of durable starters, a world class defense in both infield and outfield, a lineup that can generate runs in more than one way, a bullpen that won't steal defeat from the jaws of victory, and a top end catcher to hold the whole package together. These are the conditions by which victory is achieved, anything that does not accomplish these objectives is a waste of resources.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
    While that's true, not being able to talk a very reasonable owner (Henry is widely regarded as one of the better, more openminded owners in all of North American professional sports) and make the case from a baseball standpoint isn't the mark of a great GM.

    The more you blame ownership for things going wrong under Cherington, the more you admit that Cherington was not up to one of the crucial aspects of a GM's job -- managing his relationship with ownership and higher execs.



    And I just have to ask the question, why couldn't Cherington convince Henry to make an exception for a fan favorite, 2x world series champion with no known health issues, a proven record as a rock-solid and extremely durable starter, and one of the most well known and iconic pitchers of the recent Red Sox era who Red Sox fans would absolutely travel far and wide for the chance to see?

    You can make the argument based on conventional baseball wisdom, medical infomation AND love of money. Not to mention that Jon actually got a late start to his career thanks to the cancer treatment back in 06 and has a lot less wear and tear on his arm than a conventional power lefty.

    Why can't the most consistently effective Red Sox starter since Pedro Martinez (Sale's working on beating him here, but will need a few years to lock it down), with, again, absolutely no known health issues, get an exception to a rule that should only ever be followed in general, and evaluated on a case by case basis?

    While I agree with that policy as a general rule, not being flexible enough to make exceptions when it makes sense does not reflect well on either ownership or the GM that can't talk them into it.
    Nice reply. Thanks.

    I've never claimed Ben was flawless (not that you are saying I have).

    He made some very bad signings and non signings. He blew the Lester negotiations with the low ball initial offer or the act of not immediately following up the low ball offer with something more substantial.

    To me, just one change to what Ben did might have radically changed his grade: had he signed Lester (or Scherzer) instead of HRam & Pablo, his history with us would be looked at much more nicely.

    Also, I didn't mean to sound like I was blaming Henry and top management for not allowing Ben to sign a 30+ pitcher long term. To me, Henry has to be totally blameless in anything. Without him, we have no rings.

  13. #253
    One thing's for sure, DD has his hands full trying to plug the holes in the pitching staff with the limited trade chips at his disposal.

    Are there any 'pure' salary dumps in the pitching area out there?

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    One thing's for sure, DD has his hands full trying to plug the holes in the pitching staff with the limited trade chips at his disposal.

    Are there any 'pure' salary dumps in the pitching area out there?
    James Shields?

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    James Shields?
    Just the thought of "Big Game James" makes me shudder. And then I think of what Mick Jagger said, "You can't always get what you want, but....."

    It's a mere moment in a man's life between the All-Star game and the Old Timer's game.
    -Vin Scully

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