Cora and Closers

[kenmeister]

Whether Sale should have pitched the 9th or not, the fact is that Kimbrel has been shaky for a couple months now. I'm very concerned going into this series with the Astros. We need Kimbrel to be lights out.

[mvp 78]

But you're comparing an 8 year stint against a 1 year stint that isn't even complete yet.

Tito's one true off year was his 8th year.

Which coincided with Theo's off year.

[mvp 78]

Whether Sale should have pitched the 9th or not, the fact is that Kimbrel has been shaky for a couple months now. I'm very concerned going into this series with the Astros. We need Kimbrel to be lights out.

8 earned runs in the final two months of the season. 4 of them were in one game against the O's. That doesn't sound too shaky for me.

1.16 WHIP over that time too.

[moonslav59]

8 earned runs in the final two months of the season. 4 of them were in one game against the O's. That doesn't sound too shaky for me.

1.16 WHIP over that time too.

It's not bad, but it's a step down from Kimbrel's norm.

I'm fine with Kimbrel. I just like Sale better.

Again, I have no issues with Cora. He's been a godsend.

[notin]

8 earned runs in the final two months of the season. 4 of them were in one game against the O's. That doesn't sound too shaky for me.

1.16 WHIP over that time too.

His highest K/9 this year was in August. But the last 2 months of the season span 17 IP over 60 days...

[mvp 78]

His highest K/9 this year was in August. But the last 2 months of the season span 17 IP over 60 days...

To say "he's shaky" then is just a personal perception.

[notin]

To say "he's shaky" then is just a personal perception.

I think it's being weighted against his best days, which might not be completely fair either...

[TylerD]

Whether Sale should have pitched the 9th or not, the fact is that Kimbrel has been shaky for a couple months now. I'm very concerned going into this series with the Astros. We need Kimbrel to be lights out.

I trust he will be. Lots of confidence getting that win against their rivals with that much pressure. He was unreal in game one outside of the early home run. I trust Kimbrel will be awesome against the Astros.

[cp176]

agree with this completely. but some posters will defend every single call Cora makes. and that is what is kind of silly. conversely, i dont think there is anyone that complains about every single call but some calls deserve second guessing. i think i had a grand total of 8 during the regular season that i posted on the Cora thread.
I have had a couple/few here in the ALDS. but we have advanced. and we have slayed the EE. so in Cora I Trust. but i will still query questionable decision making by him...whether they work or not. you tell me if that is fair or not.....

You really keep track of how many times you question Cora's calls? I realize that we have people here who question and second guess almost every move Cora makes but I have to applaud you for only calling him out 8 times. You know that there are people here who are never wrong right?

[sk7326]

Yes, I know, but you know how I love small sample sizes.

Look, my opinion can change over the years, but as of right now, Cora is the best Sox manager I have ever seen.

He seems to have a nice balance between loyalty to the players and vets and making everyone feel like they are needed.

He uses analytics better and with more success than any previous Sox manager.

He got these kids playing fundamentally solid baseball by cutting down on boneheadedness.

He got this pen to finish in the top 10 in MLB this year.

He kept using Leon and Vaz despite the sub .575 OPS. Brilliant!

Instead of our players entering prime years declining, like last year, almost all improved not just over their 2017 numbers but 2016 as well.

He exudes a confident calmness that rubs off on the players.

He doesn't always take the hot hand out like Tito and JF did to a fault.

He got Sale the rest he needed...and others, too.

To me, he does many of the things I prefer managers do. I realize I'm biased in many areas, and he seems to do more of what I like.

Clearly all success is linear - so under Farrell Betts was destined to decline again. This is silly. Cora has certainly helped, but the kids were likely to do better.

Francona is the best manager the Red Sox have had since Dick Williams, and it's not close.

Cora was a phenomenal managerial prospect, and has shown that the promise was real. That said, I look back at 2013. Farrell looked terrific because of how bad the Red Sox were the year before, and he was an improvement on Valentine just by being a normal person who brought sanity to the workplace.

Last year was a negative vibe - despite a successful season - so that this year has been so good makes things seem particularly amazing. Cora has done a really good job - but there is a lot of future left. I mean Francona was excellent with analytics at a time when it was less prevalent. Farrell was shifting infielders on that stuff.

He has a lot of the positive of Francona, with the additional positive of speaking Spanish (which I think is damn near a prerequisite for the job now). But Francona was/is a flat exceptional communicator, and did a great job working with young players in a bananas market. Of course Francona had the best media training possible, managing in Philly and having to give media updates on Michael Jordan's progress.

[sk7326]

I'd have pitched Sale the 8th and 9th, but I have no issues with Cora going with the guy who got us here- Kimbrel.

As bad as Kimbrel looked, I'm not sure any other pitcher could have regained his composure in such a high leverage situation as Kimbrel put himself into last night.

Nobody was warming up in the 9th.

It was sink or swim with kimbrel.

(Note: I am one of the few Sox fans that still feel (or admit it) that leaving Pedro in was the right thing. Pedro was our best pitcher.)

Sale was on a bullpen day ... they still had a Game 5 to plan for. I don't think Sale had another inning of pitches in him while still being available for Game 5. The 2003 decision on Pedro was nuts given the pitch count and given that they tried it once before (in Game 5 of the Oakland series) and almost blew a lead.

Cora handled things fine. It wasn't his fault Kimbrel had no idea where his curveball was going. And you still have to go back to Kimbrel. Maybe they should have had someone else ready to go - but Cora had to manage to a degree like he had another chance at this (because he did).

[moonslav59]

Clearly all success is linear - so under Farrell Betts was destined to decline again. This is silly. Cora has certainly helped, but the kids were likely to do better.

Francona is the best manager the Red Sox have had since Dick Williams, and it's not close.

Cora was a phenomenal managerial prospect, and has shown that the promise was real. That said, I look back at 2013. Farrell looked terrific because of how bad the Red Sox were the year before, and he was an improvement on Valentine just by being a normal person who brought sanity to the workplace.

Last year was a negative vibe - despite a successful season - so that this year has been so good makes things seem particularly amazing. Cora has done a really good job - but there is a lot of future left. I mean Francona was excellent with analytics at a time when it was less prevalent. Farrell was shifting infielders on that stuff.

He has a lot of the positive of Francona, with the additional positive of speaking Spanish (which I think is damn near a prerequisite for the job now). But Francona was/is a flat exceptional communicator, and did a great job working with young players in a bananas market. Of course Francona had the best media training possible, managing in Philly and having to give media updates on Michael Jordan's progress.

It appears you are only looking at Tito's successes, which is fine.

I know winning rings is the crown achievement for anyone, and if Cora never wins one, I'll probbaly adjust my opinion, but as of right now, he's the best Sox manager I have ever seen. He's loyal to the players but not to a fault.

BTW, I never said or implied success is linear. I expected many of our declining prime players to improve, no matter who was managing.

[moonslav59]

Sale was on a bullpen day ... they still had a Game 5 to plan for. I don't think Sale had another inning of pitches in him while still being available for Game 5. The 2003 decision on Pedro was nuts given the pitch count and given that they tried it once before (in Game 5 of the Oakland series) and almost blew a lead.

Cora handled things fine. It wasn't his fault Kimbrel had no idea where his curveball was going. And you still have to go back to Kimbrel. Maybe they should have had someone else ready to go - but Cora had to manage to a degree like he had another chance at this (because he did).

If Pedro got out of that inning, nobody would be screaming the choice was "nuts."

Pedro was our best pitcher by far. An 80% Pedro was still our best.

I'm not saying anyone who wanted him yanked is wrong, but to me, Little's choice had a lot of merit. it wasn't a 100% call, except through hindsight.

[sk7326]

It appears you are only looking at Tito's successes, which is fine.

I know winning rings is the crown achievement for anyone, and if Cora never wins one, I'll probbaly adjust my opinion, but as of right now, he's the best Sox manager I have ever seen. He's loyal to the players but not to a fault.

BTW, I never said or implied success is linear. I expected many of our declining prime players to improve, no matter who was managing.

Tito managed 8 seasons, had 0 losing ones ... the team made the playoffs 5 of the 8 years. They struck gold in 2 of the 5 playoff berths, which given how fickle baseball is, is a pretty good hit rate.
The collapse in 2011 is a negative, which he deserves some blame for. 2010 was a season which somehow did not really end until 2 weeks to go in the season despite a genuinely comical level of injury.

The 2013 Cleveland Indians made a 26 game improvement from 2012 and have not had a losing season since.

[sk7326]

If Pedro got out of that inning, nobody would be screaming the choice was "nuts."

Pedro was our best pitcher by far. An 80% Pedro was still our best.

I'm not saying anyone who wanted him yanked is wrong, but to me, Little's choice had a lot of merit. it wasn't a 100% call, except through hindsight.

The bullpen had stabilized some and Pedro showed similar difficulties 3rd time through and whatnot in Game 5 of the Oakland series. It was not a great example of learned behavior on Grady's part. After that experience, having Pedro deliver a 3 run lead with 6 outs to go should have been plenty.