OK - this is a post that I truly love - I also consider myself blessed to have a 6 year old grandson who has the early passion for baseball as well as all other games played outside in the fresh air. We can talk about this game all we want to but having experienced and actually knowing the game in my opinion is what it is all about. I don't mind a bit if someone who I happen to think has experienced the game and understands it takes me to school with respect to it.
Tito, Dick Williams ... everybody else
Cora is off to a terrific start ... at the same time Farrell's start is not all that dissimilar. (Cora obviously started with a better situation)
Moreover - Tito and Williams' results in other places reinforced their quality.
Terry Bradshaw had a pretty good line about how to decide debates about who's the best: 'Let's all drop our championship rings on the table and see who makes the most noise...'
It's a bit reductive. And it is hard to tell where managers end and players begin in terms of credit/blame pie. A bad manager can only screw things up so much. I mean the Royals won two pennants with a bad tactical manager. The Rangers did too. (both are probably very good at the stuff we don't see) But either way you want sustained excellence - building a successful culture that can optimize players. Cora has shown a ton in year 1 - but hell, he still has to demonstrate more over time ... I mean Kevin Cash has a strong track record for what you want from a manager without the hardware.
psst...
We got the joke. BUT, making this into a serious discussion was not a bad idea.
The fact that so many put Cora ahead of Tito is pretty funny. I absolutely LOVE Cora right now, but thus far, all he's shown is that he is a great manager. NO SMALL FEAT!!!! But, it's nowhere near what Tito did, & keeps on doing. I still feel badly about the 'difficulties Tito got into, with the "inmates running the asylum," due perhaps to a bit of a "pain management problem."
Yeh. At the time he had to go, but his downturn in MO WAY diminishes his HISTORIC success in Boston. That 2004 ALCS actually belongs right up there with 67 & 75. In fact, so much so that many of us were far less excited about the final WS win. That series was THE GREATEST COMEBACK in all of sports history, let alone just MLB HISTORY. For 7 out of 9 years, Tito pulled all the right levers.
Anyway.... Let's pray that Cora becomes everything & more than Tito, or at least comes close! It's gonna be tough, what with so many guys heading for EPIC MONEY in free agency. It's gonna be VERY TOUGH to keep this talent together over the coming years.
What Dick Williams did with that bunch of players in 1967, IMO, puts him at the top of the list. And it was no fluke, based on his success rate as a manager, albeit with different teams, in the ensuing years after leaving the Red Sox.
The fact that so many put Cora ahead of Tito is pretty funny.
I count one: me.
I understand the love for Tito, and he is deserving of the support he has gotten.
I get the longevity argument.
I get the total rings argument.
I also look at several missed playoffs, early exits and let downs with some damn good teams led by great starters.
I think it's "funny" how Ben is always roasted for trading away a top rotation, but Tito was not blamed for not being able to win with them. He gets credit for winning the two rings but not for the other seasons.
I know I'm the champion of not using small sample sizes, so my position seems contradicting, but in my opinion, Cora is the best manager I've ever seen the Sox have.
Yes, it's a small sample size, and my opinion might change after he's had a couple poor or under performing seasons, but he hasn't had any, yet. I'm going by the totality of their work-- the good and the bad and the ugly.
Cora has no ugly. Cora has no bad. True, Cora has no rings either, but from what I've seen him do, he's the best. Tito is a close second, and I'm okay with seeing him as #1. Dick Williams and Bill Carrigan are 3rd/4th.
No doubt, SO FAR..... it's easy to make the case that Cora IS a TRULY EXCEPTIONAL manager. You certainly don't win 108 regular season games by accident. You don't roll over the Yankees and Astros, BOTH GREAT TEAMS, by accident! Cora is calm, cool, collected, & talks softly, succinctly, & quietly, while carrying a very big stick. SO FAR, he IS EXCEPTIONAL! SO FAR, he has managed THIS TEAM brilliantly!
So far . . . .
BUT..... sorry! NOBODY should be giving him The Nobel Peace Prize this early. Results matter. SO FAR, he has 3 BIG RESULTS.... Far more than Obama had when being given the NPP, but we haven't even made it TO THE BIG PRIZE. It's ridiculous to assume he wins it, before a pitch has been thrown. On paper, WE SHOULD WIN IT, so what will be said if he doesn't? Unlike with the NPP, Cora will be deemed a failure. Unfair, but true. He will have to take the blame. Unfair perhaps, but true.
I think I'll wait for your bigger sample before crowning him King.
Any other decision is just silly. I freaking LOVE THIS GUY, & think he has ALL THE RIGHT TOOLS to become one of the best managers ever! He simply put, clearly relates to, motivates, inspires, pushesball the right buttons, and unites a very diverse group of players. NO SMALL FEAT! He is uniquely positioned for the current demographics of players today! Plus, he clearly seems to be a genuinely decent and exceptional person.
He has all the right tools to BE THE BEST ever, but it still remains to be seen.
Last edited by Sox75; 10-21-2018 at 01:11 PM.
I thought "on paper" we were supposed to lose to the Yanks and Astros.
The Astros were faves. once the Yanks won in Boston, they were faves.
I'm going on what I see on the field. Cora is doing things no previous Sox manager has ever done.
He's doing things many here used to criticize past managers, including at the end of Tito's reign, of never having the balls to try.
With respect to the ring theory - sorry I don't buy that. I have seen so many wonderfully talented coaches never win one. They just didn't get quite lucky enough. With respect to players and rings - Oh well - poor Ted I guess - I wonder if his lack of rings means that I can no longer consider him the best hitter of all time. NOT That would kind of be like what I have said before that that must mean that Eli Manning will go down as being a better QB than Dan Marino and that is a joke.
I think that the thinking for the most part here for sure is that one reason for Cora's success is his age which allows him to better communicate with this current generation of players. Everybody tends to think that he is just such a player's manager right. I bet that we would be surprised to find out how much in reality he is in charge of this team. He is now surrounded with the types of players he wants and he is managing in the manner that he chooses. I'm guessing that he is very clear in that locker room and that he isn't afraid to deal quickly with any and all of the little nuisance items that pop up. If he is what people think a player's coach is fine but I think that he is clearly running the show.
The worst record any of Tito's teams had was 86-76, in 2006. And that was a season in which the team was thoroughly decimated by injuries in the second half.
No serious fan expects their team to win it all every year.
The reason Ben got roasted was not just for trading away a top rotation, but for finishing last in consecutive seasons.
I thought I pretty much said that? I said "HE beat 2 GREAT TEAMS." I said he HAS BEEN EXCEPTIONAL!
WE agree on everything, except on what has yet to happen. We haven't won it all yet. That's it. Like it or not, without winning it all, Tito still ranks above Cora. FOR NOW....
As I also said, Cora has ALL THE TOOLS! Whether it happens for him is yet to be seen.
Either way, he remains a GREAT MANAGER. "The best?" I just don't know yet.
You know what, when you actually are talking about the greatest coaches most fans use wins and losses to make their final decision. Most coaches, people on the inside don't. There is so so much more that goes into it. I think that Cora has great great potential.