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Thread: The Pen

  1. #2086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    i am guessing this has to be it. otherwise it just doesnt make sense.

    Agreed. Otherwise I agree with you that it was stupid.

    Even if he thought he could get more IP from his bullpen because of the job Porcello did the night before, that would be dumb. A couple nights off for the pen in mid-June is rarely a bad thing...

  2. #2087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    I'm surprised you would even think that's a possibility.

    Sale has been around 100-105 pitches every time out...

    I know. As has Price (when not getting shelled early). But I’m reaching for the negative possibilities here. I don’t think he’s that stupid...

  3. #2088
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    at home i definitely use him in the top of the 9th.
    Exactly. So before the Hector Velasquez-types. Which is why Velasquez blowing that save isn’t a reflection on the closer situation...

  4. #2089
    Who knows what happened ? I would take a guess that Price asked , or at least hinted , to be taken out . Just a guess .

  5. #2090
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    They did, but once was their best reliever this season and the other time was in the 13th inning with their 7th reliever of the game. I canít fault the 7th relief pitcher used for not saving the game. If the Sox had Kimbrel or even Mariano Rivera in his prime, itís not like they were going to save him for the 13th inning and use the rest of the bullpen in front of him.

    The offense was the problem. They had plenty of opportunities to score and failed nearly every time...
    As a rule , a manager will use his closer at home , in a tie game in the ninth inning . On the road , they may take a different approach . I recall Buck Showalter , who normally managed a bullpen about as good as anyone , holding Zack Britton back for a possible save situation in a playoff game. Regrettably for Buck , that situation never happened , as the bullpen blew the game without Britton ever getting in . Buck was roundly lambasted for it .

  6. #2091
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgalehouse View Post
    As a rule , a manager will use his closer at home , in a tie game in the ninth inning . On the road , they may take a different approach . I recall Buck Showalter , who normally managed a bullpen about as good as anyone , holding Zack Britton back for a possible save situation in a playoff game. Regrettably for Buck , that situation never happened , as the bullpen blew the game without Britton ever getting in . Buck was roundly lambasted for it .
    As he should have been.

    Showalter was managing for the save. But he needed to keep putting up 0’s on the bottom of the scoreboard, and lost the game because he wouldn’t use his pitcher most capable of putting up 0’s.

    He managed for the save and it cost him the win...

  7. #2092
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    And Carson Smith got released.

    His career has fizzled and might even be over...

  8. #2093
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    As he should have been.

    Showalter was managing for the save. But he needed to keep putting up 0’s on the bottom of the scoreboard, and lost the game because he wouldn’t use his pitcher most capable of putting up 0’s.

    He managed for the save and it cost him the win...
    May have cost him the win. Gotta be fair, even to Buck.
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  9. #2094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    the above statements make me think that prices labia must have been hurting and pulled himself from the game??
    the manager gets paid to make those tough decisions. this time it didnt work out. someone on this site likes to defend the manager at all costs but also says the manager should be judged solely on W & L's. those statements seem to contradict. especially this season.
    What a crock--chastising Cora for not overruling his $30M/year starter and telling him he must pinch at least the 6th.

    But it's also worth looking at what actually happened after Cora made what you think was the wrong decision. The next two guys, Sharwynn and Brasier pitched the 6th and 7th innings without giving a run. Why is that a terrible outcome from Cora's purportedly bad decision?

    Now we're in the 8th and the Sox have a 2-1 lead, an out comes Workmanwith an ERA of 1.82, just a little over 1/2 of Price's 3.39 ERA. I'd say it is unarguable that up to the point Workman took the mound in the 8th--including the fact that Cora sent him--Cora has made nothing but the right moves. But it wasn't Workman's night, and he gave up the tying run. So now the game is tied and the next three guys--Barnes, Taylor, and Brewer--give up 0 runs in 4 innings. So at this point the bullpen has gone 7 innings and given up 1 run, and you insist Cora had no business taking Price out way back after the 5th when Price in fact asked to be taken out.

    I gotta say that, based on the evidence of what actually happened in the game, it would be awfully difficult to convict Cora of malfeasance. In fact, the evidence suggests he made a series of excellent decisions.

    As for the rest, yes, I do tend to defend managers because I think they know more than we do. But of course I have no idea about the impact of their personalities or management style have on the players overall performance, but honestly doubt that Cora's is undercutting overall team performance.

    Ulimately, however, the manager is responsible for wins and losses because my experience says that's why they get fired. And sometimes even that can be a mistake. Francona was fired after 2011 and after managing the Sox to two WS wins in 2004 and 2007 and went on to become an excellent manager at Cleveland. Bobby V, granted, was a disaster and left after a year. Farrell came in as a known quantity--former Sox pitching coach--and immediately won the 2013 WS, had two losing seasons (last in the AL East, I think), and then 2 more when the Sox got to the ALDS and quickly lost both times. I defended Farrell a lot, but also agreed in his last season it was probably time for him to go. Enter Cora, who was carefully chosen. Huge success his first year. It's always the players who win championships, but it seemed as though he regularly made good decisions although I think I went ape over one of them--maybe leaving Wright in too long). So, yeah, right now I am very supportive this manager. I even like that he tries to do good things for Puerto Rico and I think lives there in the offseason.

  10. #2095
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    May have cost him the win. Gotta be fair, even to Buck.

    Was there a possibility he didn’t lose that game?

    Britton might have given up a run and list as well, but there is a difference between getting beaten with your best and getting beaten while taking half measures. And that difference was shown in the beating Showalter took afterwards...

  11. #2096
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxbialystock View Post
    when Price in fact asked to be taken out.
    wait....when did this "fact" come out? do we have a quote from Cora and/or Price stating that price asked to be taken out?
    other names i have posted under: none

  12. #2097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxbialystock View Post
    What a crock--chastising Cora for not overruling his $30M/year starter and telling him he must pinch at least the 6th.

    But it's also worth looking at what actually happened after Cora made what you think was the wrong decision. The next two guys, Sharwynn and Brasier pitched the 6th and 7th innings without giving a run. Why is that a terrible outcome from Cora's purportedly bad decision?

    Now we're in the 8th and the Sox have a 2-1 lead, an out comes Workmanwith an ERA of 1.82, just a little over 1/2 of Price's 3.39 ERA. I'd say it is unarguable that up to the point Workman took the mound in the 8th--including the fact that Cora sent him--Cora has made nothing but the right moves. But it wasn't Workman's night, and he gave up the tying run. So now the game is tied and the next three guys--Barnes, Taylor, and Brewer--give up 0 runs in 4 innings. So at this point the bullpen has gone 7 innings and given up 1 run, and you insist Cora had no business taking Price out way back after the 5th when Price in fact asked to be taken out.

    I gotta say that, based on the evidence of what actually happened in the game, it would be awfully difficult to convict Cora of malfeasance. In fact, the evidence suggests he made a series of excellent decisions.

    As for the rest, yes, I do tend to defend managers because I think they know more than we do. But of course I have no idea about the impact of their personalities or management style have on the players overall performance, but honestly doubt that Cora's is undercutting overall team performance.

    Ulimately, however, the manager is responsible for wins and losses because my experience says that's why they get fired. And sometimes even that can be a mistake. Francona was fired after 2011 and after managing the Sox to two WS wins in 2004 and 2007 and went on to become an excellent manager at Cleveland. Bobby V, granted, was a disaster and left after a year. Farrell came in as a known quantity--former Sox pitching coach--and immediately won the 2013 WS, had two losing seasons (last in the AL East, I think), and then 2 more when the Sox got to the ALDS and quickly lost both times. I defended Farrell a lot, but also agreed in his last season it was probably time for him to go. Enter Cora, who was carefully chosen. Huge success his first year. It's always the players who win championships, but it seemed as though he regularly made good decisions although I think I went ape over one of them--maybe leaving Wright in too long). So, yeah, right now I am very supportive this manager. I even like that he tries to do good things for Puerto Rico and I think lives there in the offseason.
    Well said Max.

    Let me dummy down what Max said..... OUR FUCKING BULLPEN WENT NEARLY 12 INNINGS AND GAVE UP 3 RUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Against the best offensive team in the league. That is NOT the wrong decision by Cora. Jesus....... How do some of you not see this. smh........

  13. #2098
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    our starter went 5 innings and gave up only 1 run. 1.80 ERA
    relievers 11.1 innings and gave up 3 runs. 2.38 ERA
    1.80 > 2.38
    Price > Relievers
    how do some of you not see this. smh.......
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  14. #2099
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    our starter went 5 innings and gave up only 1 run. 1.80 ERA
    relievers 11.1 innings and gave up 3 runs. 2.38 ERA
    1.80 > 2.38
    Price > Relievers
    how do some of you not see this. smh.......
    You have made some good posts and intelligent posts.

    This is not one of them.

  15. #2100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    wait....when did this "fact" come out? do we have a quote from Cora and/or Price stating that price asked to be taken out?
    A fair question. I interpreted what Cora and and especially Price said, which was he wished he could have given more and that the decision was not on Cora.

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