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Thread: The Pen

  1. #2836
    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    I am surprised that you liked bringing back Pearce and Nunez.
    Short term deals for bench/platoon players. I have no issue with either contract. Same thing with Moreland.

  2. #2837
    Quote Originally Posted by dgalehouse View Post
    I have to disagree . An experienced G.M. thinking he could lose Kimbrel and Kelly from his bullpen without it making a difference is foolish. He needed to do something. To me it seems like he was complacent and overconfident. Flush with success and maybe a little smug .
    We will have to disagree on this. I just have a different opinion on building a bullpen than most people have. Dombrowski replaced Kimbrel and Kelly. He just didn't replace them with the well known names.

  3. #2838
    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch View Post
    The Yanks and Rays have used openers with bulk starters afterwards. The Sox havenít done that yet, using traditional starters. So their pen numbers are true. The Rays and ours, not so much
    Also, our starters were supposed to be our strength, carrying the load for the pen.

    People can blame the pen as much as they want. They have been bad. But it starts with the rotation.

  4. #2839
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Does this mean we're done bashing Ben?
    Ha. Perfect post.

    #BringBenBack

  5. #2840
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Personally I think the only thing DD should have done differently this season was do more about the bullpen.

    Most of the rest comes down to shit happens.

    If it was that easy to repeat, someone else would have done it this century. It's all been one and dones.

    And we have 3 or 4 more titles than almost every other team this century. I'll take it.
    This season is not on Dombrowski.

    It's on the players not performing to their expectations and randomness. Maybe some on Cora.

    As I said many times in my defense of Ben, when the pre-season projections, both analytic and non-analytic, agree that the Sox should be one of the top 2-3 teams in baseball, then the GM has done his job.

  6. #2841
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    I think we have a great owner. He has brought us those 4 titles. He is driven to win. We have the highest payroll. I have no real complaints. If others want to complain that's their prerogative, but no one should tell me I'm not a good fan. I've paid my dues. I've been with this team since the late Sixties. I've been through hell, just like every other Sox fan who's been with them that long.
    Since this ownership group took over, I have felt that going into every season, the team had a legitimate chance of making the playoffs. That's really all we can ask for as fans.

  7. #2842
    Quote Originally Posted by OH FOY! View Post
    Sox are the one of the biggest analytical teams in baseball, they use every letter in alphabet, on Stats. Nobody is signed unless the Nerds say so.
    Do you think the Nerds would suggest that Dombrowski sign Pearce based on the emotion of the WS?

    The same type of thing was said when the Sox signed Panda, that they were fooled by his postseason performance.

    Give the GMs some credit. They are smarter than that, even the non-analytic ones. The Nerds would definitely not be fooled by post season heroics.

    Hmm. I wonder if Lucchino is still pulling strings from somewhere behind the curtains.

  8. #2843
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    Do you think the Nerds would suggest that Dombrowski sign Pearce based on the emotion of the WS?

    The same type of thing was said when the Sox signed Panda, that they were fooled by his postseason performance.

    Give the GMs some credit. They are smarter than that, even the non-analytic ones. The Nerds would definitely not be fooled by post season heroics.

    Hmm. I wonder if Lucchino is still pulling strings from somewhere behind the curtains.
    Pearce had some very good regular season numbers over the prior 2-3 regular seasons. I don't think the post season numbers were the only reason DD decided to sign him.
    Sox 4 Ever

  9. #2844
    I strongly felt that D.D. was wrong to pretty much ignore the bullpen and spend the money elsewhere . I have seen nothing since that changes my mind on that . However , spilled milk is spilled milk . The season is not over . I think making Eovaldi the closer , while it may seem like desperation to some , is the single best thing we can do to turn this around. If it works , it will not only provide a closer , but it should help the rest of the bullpen as well . The ripple effect may even help the starters . Eovaldi as closer gives us our best shot at winning. Let's get started with it .

  10. #2845
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jung View Post
    There was simply NO REASON....NONE to extend Sale when DD extended him and out to 2024 no less for a guy with a rep now for punking out at the end of seasons. That was a lotta' money to pay for a starter under those circumstances when DD really did not have to do it. I do not believe as some have commented that Sale was injured and the Sox knew it. That simply does not make sense. That he is wearing down is fairly obvious. Wear is not injury and wear has never been considered injury. Tissue shredding and bone crumbling and tendons snapping....that is injury. We would have preferred that DD wait and not extend Sale when he did and if we would not have preferred that we are out of our minds.

    As for Eovaldi, that is another starting pitcher overpay. I would be more specific in my comments about DD than some have been here. Where he really overpays IMO is starting pitching and he has done that now twice in the same year....Sale and Eovaldi, both of whom are worrisome expenditures into a John Henry that I suspect is getting leery of simply allowing DD free access to his bank account. Then of course there is that annoying tendency of DD's of simply throwing stuff for the pen against the wall to see what sticks. That simply flies in the face of where this game has been going for at least 10 years now. I don't like the way this game is going but if I had the purse strings for player personnel what I don't like becomes irrelevant in the face of an obvious trend. DD seems to be fighting the trend which is IMO an untenable position.

    I have no issues with the Price deal and JD was fine but not better than fine. Price was a gamble at his age for that kind of cash and term. But the gamble has paid off in a championship and its late enough in his deal that if he folds like a cheap suit....that is sort of how these long term deals work out anyway. I have no issues with JD either except now JD is making noise about wanting to be on firmer footing with the Sox in a more solid deal than he has. NO WAY!!!! JD has trouble hitting breaking stuff right into a cadre of MLB pitchers starting to throw buckets of breaking stuff at him. IMO the hitters that are really thriving now are those that take advantage of the fact that nobody pitches inside effectively anymore. Devers dives across the batters box. So does X. Bellinger by God sets up with his elbow hanging over the inner third of the plate. JD is not going to change what he does. He is a process hitter that lives off of weak cheese. He has his process. He is not going to deviate. NO WAY do I rewrite JD's deal and if he wants to opt out.....thanks for the 2018 effort JD.

    X has been a real treasure here. But I think the player himself is as responsible as DD for that one. X must have been sending very favorable vibes and his response to just having signed a big money, long term deal is so singularly rare in this day and age that the Sox must have felt very comfortable with that deal going into it. They live with the player and must have known his character is as it projects and frankly even from the outside looking in, if any young Sox player looked like the kind of guy you would do this for even before the deal was done, its X by a country mile.

    Pearce was particularly senseless. Hated it from the minute I heard it. Moreland was a bit of a mystery as well but Pearce was just flat out bad and smelled bad right from the start.

    I don't think DD will be kept past his 2020 contract expiration. Might even go before then as its tough to have a Pres of baseball ops that is a lame duck.
    I thought the Sale contract was a great deal for the Sox, despite signs of decline. Most of the great pitchers have a little meltdown between 29-31 and then have some very good years for 2-4 years afterwards. I still expect Sale will earn his keep.

    I could be wrong: he could become the next King Felix, but I doubt it.

    I know many said it was a mistake before this year started, and right now, you look right, but his contract has just begun.

    Almost everyone, but me, loved the Moreland signing and re-signing. His fragility led to the trade and re-signing or Pearce. That was a mistake that led to the second mistake (needing to sign Pearce as insurance).

    The Nunez re-signing was a mistake. He was clearly physically breaking down. His injuries and decline led us to trade Buttrey for Kinsler.

    Eovaldi's playoff heroics were a big part of his re-signing, but those moments rallied the team, and losing his clubhouse presence would have been the first excuse used had we sucked this year with some other starter signed instead of him. It was an overpay, but we did need a solid SP'er, and we were not the only ones trying to sign him. The astute talent seeker, Astros, wanted him badly. Yes, it was a mistake (at least for 2019).

    As we all know, free agent signings are more busts or negative than gains. Expecting DD to ace every signing is expecting too much.

    We do NOT have an unlimited budget, despite what many people seem to think. DD spent to the limit to get us the ring in 2018. To "continue improving every year" without a farm left us to the point where we had about 5-6 holes and precious few dollars to fill them all. Had we known Chavis would do what he's done, maybe we wouldn't have signed Pearce, but then again, maybe we'd have spent that money on Cody Allen or David Robertson or one of several other RP'er FA flops.

    In hindsight, maybe we sign Ottavino or Morton and we'd be better off, now, but it is the previous high spending and emptying the farm that got us to last winter's pickle, and DD had to be perfect with his signings to keep us as a top contender.


    Sox 4 Ever

  11. #2846
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgalehouse View Post
    I strongly felt that D.D. was wrong to pretty much ignore the bullpen and spend the money elsewhere . I have seen nothing since that changes my mind on that . However , spilled milk is spilled milk . The season is not over . I think making Eovaldi the closer , while it may seem like desperation to some , is the single best thing we can do to turn this around. If it works , it will not only provide a closer , but it should help the rest of the bullpen as well . The ripple effect may even help the starters . Eovaldi as closer gives us our best shot at winning. Let's get started with it .
    You were definitely the leader in this position from day one, and it is certainly true that our pen was and still is weak. Word was out that we were shopping for Robertson. Signing him would have led to the same fate as now. Cody Allen was mentioned by several posters, including myself, as a cheaper option. That would have been a huge mistake.

    Some of us felt that Ottavino was the best choice of the higher bracket FA signings, and having him now would certainly be a big plus over Eovaldi, but look at how crappy our rotation has been. Clearly our rotation would have been a big area of need right now had we signed Ottavino instead of Eovaldi.

    Had we signed Ottavino & Morton, we'd be over the max line. Had we done that and Chavis flopped, we'd have Holt at 1B everyday and Nunez at 2B everyday.

    In hindsight we should have signed one of Morton or Ottavino, but we might not have really been that much better off had a couple other factors not worked.

    I'm not defending DD. He got us to where we are today, but he also got us to where we were last year, and that was the plan all along. Go for broke and deal with the fall-out later.

    Sox 4 Ever

  12. #2847
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    You were definitely the leader in this position from day one, and it is certainly true that our pen was and still is weak. Word was out that we were shopping for Robertson. Signing him would have led to the same fate as now. Cody Allen was mentioned by several posters, including myself, as a cheaper option. That would have been a huge mistake.

    Some of us felt that Ottavino was the best choice of the higher bracket FA signings, and having him now would certainly be a big plus over Eovaldi, but look at how crappy our rotation has been. Clearly our rotation would have been a big area of need right now had we signed Ottavino instead of Eovaldi.

    Had we signed Ottavino & Morton, we'd be over the max line. Had we done that and Chavis flopped, we'd have Holt at 1B everyday and Nunez at 2B everyday.

    In hindsight we should have signed one of Morton or Ottavino, but we might not have really been that much better off had a couple other factors not worked.

    I'm not defending DD. He got us to where we are today, but he also got us to where we were last year, and that was the plan all along. Go for broke and deal with the fall-out later.

    I don't think the plan was to win last year and not make the playoffs this year . I hope the plan was to win again this year .

  13. #2848
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimmi View Post
    Do you think the Nerds would suggest that Dombrowski sign Pearce based on the emotion of the WS?

    The same type of thing was said when the Sox signed Panda, that they were fooled by his postseason performance.

    Give the GMs some credit. They are smarter than that, even the non-analytic ones. The Nerds would definitely not be fooled by post season heroics.

    Hmm. I wonder if Lucchino is still pulling strings from somewhere behind the curtains.
    I think fans are the only ones who react to postseason numbers. If GMs did it, Panda would never have been allowed to leave San Francisco...

  14. #2849
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgalehouse View Post
    I don't think the plan was to win last year and not make the playoffs this year . I hope the plan was to win again this year .
    The plan included being maxed out on the budget and emptied of farm hands available by 2019. Yes, I think we thought we'd still be competitive, but we knew we did not have enough money to "keep getting better". We didn't even stay even. We brought back Eovaldi and Pearce but lost Kimbrel and Kelly. The "plan" forced us into having to choose whicj holes to fill and which holes to roll the dice with.
    Sox 4 Ever

  15. #2850
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    The plan included being maxed out on the budget and emptied of farm hands available by 2019. Yes, I think we thought we'd still be competitive, but we knew we did not have enough money to "keep getting better". We didn't even stay even. We brought back Eovaldi and Pearce but lost Kimbrel and Kelly. The "plan" forced us into having to choose whicj holes to fill and which holes to roll the dice with.
    The question is how much better would we be with Kimbrel and Kelly. Most of that falls to Kelly since this team is usually behind going into the 9th so Kimbrel wouldn't be getting save opp's. Kelly seems to have turned the corner some out in LA now but I question whether his presence so far would have made a big difference.

    The problem children are Price and Porcillo. If they were performing as expected it's possible that Kimbrel would be getting more save opp's as our pen wouldn't be as overtaxed and maybe not as bad.
    It's a mere moment in a man's life between the All-Star game and the Old Timer's game.
    -Vin Scully

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