Mariano Gets 100% of the votes for HOF

[BillyWilliams]

The craziest stat I saw in favor of Mariano getting in unanimously was postseason WPA compared to everyone else in history:

1.Mariano Rivera: +11.7
2.Curt Schilling: +4.1
3.John Smoltz: +3.6
4.Andy Pettitte: +3.5
5.Jon Lester & David Ortiz: +3.2 (tie)

Lot of NY and Boston on that list.

How about career adjusted ERA+ (min. 1000 innings)!

Mo - 205

Next best is kershaw at 159

[notin]

And the only argument (weak one admittedly) I have for why Mo is the first one is that he is far and away, unequivocally, the best at his position of all time. Every other position has an argument. Ted vs Babe vs Bonds for RF, Mick vs Dimaggio vs Griffey in CF etc. There is no argument for closer. It also didn’t hurt that he’s a great guy, is always very humble and gracious and the media adores him.

I disagree, and not only because you don’t know where Ted Williams played.

One can argue Mariano’s position is “pitcher” and his role is closer. This is important because the role of closer is relatively new compared to comparing all time left fielders. And certainly Rivera is not inarguably the greatest pitcher of all time.

Now if you want to say he was the greatest in his role of all time, that’s fine. But is his dominance as unique as you suggest?

Arguably, also not. Rickey Henderson’s role was leadoff hitter. And as a leadoff hitter, he was equally dominant in being the greatest of all time. Before you suggest other great leadoff hitters (which can also span more years than closer, or even relief pitcher), bear in mind Rickey was once the all time leader in 3 categories - walks, runs scored, and stolen bases. These are 3 categories you want a leadoff hitter to excel in, and he did all 3 as the best in history until Barry Bonds surpassed him in walks. But until then, how many other players in MLB history lead all time in 3 cumulative categories?

[Station 13]

How about career adjusted ERA+ (min. 1000 innings)!

Mo - 205

Next best is kershaw at 159

You're comparing a starting pitcher vs reliever. Useless as always.

If you feel that way, Kimbrel currently holds a better ERA+.

[BillyWilliams]

You're comparing a starting pitcher vs reliever. Useless as always.

If you feel that way, Kimbrel currently holds a better ERA+.

First off, I didn't compare anyone, Baseball - Reference did.

Secondly, it specifically states 1,000 innings minimum, kimbrel is about halfway there.

[BillyWilliams]

I disagree, and not only because you don’t know where Ted Williams played.

One can argue Mariano’s position is “pitcher” and his role is closer. This is important because the role of closer is relatively new compared to comparing all time left fielders. And certainly Rivera is not inarguably the greatest pitcher of all time.

Now if you want to say he was the greatest in his role of all time, that’s fine. But is his dominance as unique as you suggest?

Arguably, also not. Rickey Henderson’s role was leadoff hitter. And as a leadoff hitter, he was equally dominant in being the greatest of all time. Before you suggest other great leadoff hitters (which can also span more years than closer, or even relief pitcher), bear in mind Rickey was once the all time leader in 3 categories - walks, runs scored, and stolen bases. These are 3 categories you want a leadoff hitter to excel in, and he did all 3 as the best in history until Barry Bonds surpassed him in walks. But until then, how many other players in MLB history lead all time in 3 cumulative categories?

Umm, I believe a guy named Ty Cobb was also a lead off hitter, no?

[notin]

First off, I didn't compare anyone, Baseball - Reference did.

Secondly, it specifically states 1,000 innings minimum, kimbrel is about halfway there.

Even then, Rivera’s role meant he never faced the same hitter twice in a game. Kershaw did in nearly every game he pitched...

[notin]

Umm, I believe a guy named Ty Cobb was also a lead off hitter, no?

So in order to find a better or arguably better leadoff hitter, you had to go back before the role of closer was even created? Also, Rickey scores more runs, Drew more walks and stole more bases than Cobb and everyone else in MLB history (except Bonds with walks). That’s how being an All Time Leader works.

And a quick look at B-R.com lists Cobb as having only 4 leadoff plate appearances. Now his totals here are only a fraction of his career as a lot of data is clearly not available. But it does suggest Cobb may not have been the leadoff hitter very often in his career...

[Station 13]

First off, I didn't compare anyone, Baseball - Reference did.

Secondly, it specifically states 1,000 innings minimum, kimbrel is about halfway there.

You actually did and it was asinine.

"Next best is kershaw at 159"

you've compared him right there.

Don't blame BR.

If you want to compare these players, square them up at their respective positions.

Kershaw vs Pedro Martinez vs Koufax vs Clemens

Relievers, same deal.

[BillyWilliams]

Even then, Rivera’s role meant he never faced the same hitter twice in a game. Kershaw did in nearly every game he pitched...

Agreed, there is certainly a difference between a reliever and a starter.

There are only 2 other primary relievers in the top 10, and the gap is even wider.

Wilhelm at 147 and Quisenberry at 146

[BillyWilliams]

You actually did and it was asinine.

"Next best is kershaw at 159"

you've compared him right there.

Don't blame BR.

If you want to compare these players, square them up at their respective positions.

Kershaw vs Pedro Martinez vs Koufax vs Clemens

Relievers, same deal.

I simply stated what Baseball-Reference lists as all time leaders in adjusted ERA+.

You want to argue with them by all means do so.

Knock yourself out.

[BillyWilliams]

So in order to find a better or arguably better leadoff hitter, you had to go back before the role of closer was even created? Also, Rickey scores more runs, Drew more walks and stole more bases than Cobb and everyone else in MLB history (except Bonds with walks). That’s how being an All Time Leader works.

And a quick look at B-R.com lists Cobb as having only 4 leadoff plate appearances. Now his totals here are only a fraction of his career as a lot of data is clearly not available. But it does suggest Cobb may not have been the leadoff hitter very often in his career...

I saw another site that had him as primarily a lead off hitter which upon further research I see is not true.

I stand corrected, thank you.

[Slasher9]

i wonder if his nephews will be at the ceremony?
oh..wait....nevermind....

[bkzwhitestrican]

i wonder if his nephews will be at the ceremony?
oh..wait....nevermind....

That was unnecessary

[BillyWilliams]

i wonder if his nephews will be at the ceremony?
oh..wait....nevermind....

Claasy as always from our resident troll.

[BillyWilliams]

That was unnecessary

Do you really expect more from new jersey scum?