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Thread: Sandy Leon vs. JBJ--who brings more value on defense and overall

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    he literally does the exact opposite of this.
    i think maybe my TV shows the game differently.
    \_(ツ)_/
    If you weren't honing in on senior citizenship, I might agree with you about your tv? Do all the women have blue hair on yours? lol

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Some of us had faith this would happen, but you were very skeptical.
    Heck, I was skeptical. I have relentlessly attacked the notion of CERA in the past. But no more.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    There's room for both Leon and JBJ on this roster. I'm not sure why the conversation the past few days has been "pick one."
    Are you intentionally (and vastly) over-simplifying this. Of course there is room for both. Heck, right now you can make a good case for putting both in the lineup, as scary as that seems.

    I started this thread mostly to say that a good defensive catcher is more valuable than a good defensive centerfielder--especially on this team in this season. Ironically I was also forced to say that, because Vazquez is hitting so well and isn't terrible as a defensive catcher, JBJ is even more likely than Leon to be in the lineup for any given game.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    that was the OP's plan.
    me? i blame Cora.
    No, it certainly wasn't my plan, which was and is to promote the value of Leon, of whom I have been dismissive in the past. This season has demonstrated--to me, anyway--how much more valuable a good defensive catcher is than any, repeat any, good defensive center fielder.

  5. #35
    Legend Slasher9's Avatar
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    the catcher makes a defensive play on every pitch that isnt hit and on some that are hit. Catcher is EASILY the most important defensive position. how is this even a real question???
    other names i have posted under: none

  6. #36
    I think this thread is mainly just an attempt to be provocative . I have noticed that we do see that every so often on here .

  7. #37
    TalkSox Godhead mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxbialystock View Post
    Are you intentionally (and vastly) over-simplifying this. Of course there is room for both. Heck, right now you can make a good case for putting both in the lineup, as scary as that seems.

    I started this thread mostly to say that a good defensive catcher is more valuable than a good defensive centerfielder--especially on this team in this season. Ironically I was also forced to say that, because Vazquez is hitting so well and isn't terrible as a defensive catcher, JBJ is even more likely than Leon to be in the lineup for any given game.
    My post doesn't simplify the issue. It makes it more complex. Your question was either/or. I stated it should be both.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    No, but if we had a hypothetical situation where you were only allowed having a glove-only catcher or a glove-only CF, which is preferable?

    I think most would agree the catcher is...
    Agree. I'd choose catcher if I could only have one.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    No, but if we had a hypothetical situation where you were only allowed having a glove-only catcher or a glove-only CF, which is preferable?

    I think most would agree the catcher is...
    Of course. Of course you can also substitute any position on the field other than pitcher for CF and get the same answer.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    My post doesn't simplify the issue. It makes it more complex. Your question was either/or. I stated it should be both.
    Well then we disagree. I think Leon's catching brings more value to the team's defense than JBJ's fielding--so much so that I also think Leon brings more value to the team, period. Leon can get by with a weak bat. JBJ cannot.

    I do not however disagree that right now with this team JBJ has enough value to continue in centerfield because replacing him out there is tricky. Leon, on the other hand, good as he is, is the #2 catcher because Vazquez ain't that bad defensively and is swinging a good bat. However, in today's game thread, I opined that against the Astros I would have Leon catch all three games. Sale, Price, and ERod will be the 3 starters.

  11. #41
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxbialystock View Post
    Well then we disagree. I think Leon's catching brings more value to the team's defense than JBJ's fielding--so much so that I also think Leon brings more value to the team, period. Leon can get by with a weak bat. JBJ cannot.

    I do not however disagree that right now with this team JBJ has enough value to continue in centerfield because replacing him out there is tricky. Leon, on the other hand, good as he is, is the #2 catcher because Vazquez ain't that bad defensively and is swinging a good bat. However, in today's game thread, I opined that against the Astros I would have Leon catch all three games. Sale, Price, and ERod will be the 3 starters.
    It's pretty clear the catching alignment is:
    Leon - Sale, Porcello
    Vaz - Price, E-Rod and spot starters
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    It's pretty clear the catching alignment is:
    Leon - Sale, Porcello
    Vaz - Price, E-Rod and spot starters
    Before the year started, I suggested Leon catch Sale & Price, based on past CERA and related numbers, but Vaz has caught Price more.

    CERA/OPS Against

    Price:
    2.76/.632 w Leon (199 Innings)
    4.25/.732 w Vaz (299 Innings)
    (The gap was wider in 2018: Leon 2.37/.587 & Vaz 4.68/.780. This year, Price has 0.00/.474 with Leon in just 5 innings & 3.75/.705 with Vaz in 36 innings.)

    Porcello
    4.04/.723 w Leon
    4.32/.751 w Porcello
    (2018: 4.25/.693 w Leon in 186 innings & 5.40/.863 w Swihart in 5 inn.- none w Vaz. 2019: 2.82/.606 w Leon in 38.1 innings, 5.93/.871 w Vaz in 13.2)

    Sale is a no brainer for Leon.

    ERod, it matter not.
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  13. #43
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Before the year started, I suggested Leon catch Sale & Price, based on past CERA and related numbers, but Vaz has caught Price more.

    CERA/OPS Against

    Price:
    2.76/.632 w Leon (199 Innings)
    4.25/.732 w Vaz (299 Innings)
    (The gap was wider in 2018: Leon 2.37/.587 & Vaz 4.68/.780. This year, Price has 0.00/.474 with Leon in just 5 innings & 3.75/.705 with Vaz in 36 innings.)
    Price pitched well with Vaz in the 2018 postseason, however.
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  14. #44
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Price pitched well with Vaz in the 2018 postseason, however.
    Yes, and that is a much smaller sample size.

    I'm okay with the choice, and it did not really surprise me. Porcello is looking very good since Leon returned, so we gotta like that.
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  15. #45
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    Bellhorn04 is probably right. Despite moonslav's compelling stats on Price, Vazquez is likely to continue to catch 3 out of 5 games and Leon to catch Sale and Porcello.

    Interestingly--and FWIW--right now Vazquez has the higher DWAR, .4 vs. .3, and the higher WAR, .9 vs. .2. I can only conclude that the higher DWAR for Vazquez is because he has the higher % for throwing out base stealers--44% vs. 25%. And apparently passed balls have no bearing on DWAR because Vazquez has 6 and Leon 0.

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