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Thread: Sale to IL with elbow injury

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Swiharts Ghost View Post
    Jackson please stop the Debbie freaking Downer shit ! This s good news today and you know it .
    Read my post. It was about Tanaka
    The rebuild is complete.

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch View Post
    Read my post. It was about Tanaka
    It was man but it's got a clip on to sale in my opinion .Jackson your a great poster here hell one of my favorites ...but man you have to tread lightly sometimes .Bull in China shop ? I may be sensitive tonight apolagies if I'm off .
    Last edited by Swiharts Ghost; 08-19-2019 at 08:52 PM.

  3. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Swiharts Ghost View Post
    It was man but it's got a clip on to sale in my opinion .Jackson your a great poster here hell one of my favorites ...but man you have to tread lightly sometimes .Bull in China shop ?
    Thanks, I think? But the comparison to Tanaka is not the one you want. He returned a clearly diminished player.
    The rebuild is complete.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by jung View Post
    Tanaka is not trying to throw 97. Said it weeks ago. First Sale must dissuade himself of the notion that he can throw again as he did earlier in his career. Sale should have known where this was going. If he has learned it with limited damage to the elbow that is fine. If he insists on pressing the issue he will only come to grief. He is about 175 lbs, He generates no momentum toward the plate from his lower body. In fact he generates less lower body momentum in his motion than Price does with his recoil follow-through. Sale with no follow-through to speak of is trying to throw as hard as guys that outweigh him by 40 lbs. That effort was always going to have a shorter shelf life.

    Tanaka really did not have to go through the kind of transformation that faces Sale. Tanaks pretty much knew where he was and did not really press the issue. Sale has already tried to press the issue once.

    Hate to think it but this could start looking like Tim Lincecum II. Not sure there really is the same path forward for Sale that Tanaka took.
    He's the opposite of Tom Seaver, who was all leg-powered. It's hard to imagine Sale, unfortunately, adjusting the way Tanaka and other crafty pitchers have. But I could be wrong. Besides, he may develop his own artfulness that looks nothing like earlier age-adjusted pitchers. As to his skinniness, there was Mariano Rivera, but of course he was a one-inning guy with power and finesse. 30 million a year for BP guy? Maybe he can develop a knuckle ball, and then even pitch beyond his contract (ha)

  5. #155
    So much speculation about how diminished Sale will be when he returns.....while its fun to speculate, Sale is not Tanaka. He may well have a completely different injury, one that responds better to treatment (or worse). I am just going to wait and see what Andrews says in October and then see what his velocity and command look like on opening day, assuming he doesn't need surgery. Its absurd to guess what kind of pitcher he will become at this point.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredLynn View Post
    So much speculation about how diminished Sale will be when he returns.....while its fun to speculate, Sale is not Tanaka. He may well have a completely different injury, one that responds better to treatment (or worse). I am just going to wait and see what Andrews says in October and then see what his velocity and command look like on opening day, assuming he doesn't need surgery. Its absurd to guess what kind of pitcher he will become at this point.
    If Sale doesn't fight it he can succeed. He still has a great Slider. His Change could be better. But that could be one of the things he works on. He will need to keep enough difference in velo between his FB and his Slider to make the Slider effective. That does not require that he throw 97. I knew he was in trouble when he tried to go back to heavy velo because he was over-thowing to get there putting excessive pressure on his arm. His throws are all arm and he is skin and bones. If he did not have such a long, lanky body, he would never be able to generate the velo he generates. Its that long arm that creates the fulcrum he uses to throw hard. But with no lower body driving toward home plate and being 180 lbs soaking wet, his throw is all arm. He was never going to be able to throw heavy velo deep into a career.

    He has to resolve this for himself in his own head. Its his head that will be the issue now. So much of his pride on the mound has been based on serious gas and the ability to throw any pitch at any time. Can he generate the same sort of mental attitude toward his pitching by "fooling" hitters instead of overpowering them with massive FB velo and ridiculous Slider movement. We won't know until Sale actually confronts it and works it out, or doesn't.

    Tim Lincicum couldn't do it. He just threw himself into the turf, ground his arm to dust because his whole makeup on the mound was based on serious gas and serious movement using a skin and bones body, a long arm and a big fulcrum just like Sale. If anything Timmy put more lower body into his pitch than Sale. There just was not much body there to work with...again just like Sale.

    Timmy was hard to watch at the end because you could see that he was just unwilling or unable to give up his old pitching self but just could not do it any longer. At the end he would deteriorate and fall apart within two innings....arm just completely spent.
    Last edited by jung; 08-19-2019 at 10:51 PM.

  7. #157
    No team has done it yet, at least not for a full season, but I was thinking about the idea of going to a 6 man rotation next year. If it will help Sale perform as a top starter and keep him healthy, the Red Sox should do it. Some combination of B.Johnson and Houck (or maybe S.Wright) could be the 6th starter. With Porcello gone, I don't know who the fifth guy is, but I would use M.Chavis as a trade chip in the offseason for a SP.

    (1)Sale
    (2)Rodriguez
    (3)Eavoldi
    (4)Price
    (5)???
    (6)Johnson/Houck or Wright

    Again, I would only go to a 6 man rotation if the Red Sox believe that easing up on guys like Sale and Eavoldi will make them better pitchers and improve their health.
    Last edited by Fan_since_Boggs; 08-20-2019 at 12:01 AM.

  8. #158
    A 6 man rotation only happens when you have six viable big league starters. While the idea would be noble to save the arms of your two fragile pitchers, it would only guarantee that you have 1/3 of the starts delivered by your rotation by guys who don’t belong on the mound as starters

  9. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by fxkatt View Post
    He's the opposite of Tom Seaver, who was all leg-powered. It's hard to imagine Sale, unfortunately, adjusting the way Tanaka and other crafty pitchers have. But I could be wrong. Besides, he may develop his own artfulness that looks nothing like earlier age-adjusted pitchers. As to his skinniness, there was Mariano Rivera, but of course he was a one-inning guy with power and finesse. 30 million a year for BP guy? Maybe he can develop a knuckle ball, and then even pitch beyond his contract (ha)
    I’m not sure how much the now Tanaka is a conscious choice vs a diminished arm. Tanaka took this course of treatment for a partial UCL tear. It worked for his longevity, but the guy who returned lost the top off his velocity range. Interestingly, Tanaka’s average FB velocity went up by 0.6 mph, but when you watched his debut season, he was anywhere from 90-97 on his fastball. Now, he’s 90-93 with an occasional 94 mixed in. So he’s throwing the ball harder on average yet he’s lost the ability to blow it by hitters when needed. It’s made his fastball far more predictable. A 7 mph range on the FB is akin to having a fastball that can act as a Changeup. He was unhittable. Now, he adjusted, but has essentially become a far more frequent breaking ball tossed in the interim. He returned throwing 8% less fastballs and that’s dropped to 10% less off his peak this year.

    Now, semantics play into this too. Seeing “inflammation” or calling this an “elbow sprain” entails a tear. The tear could be significant or it could mean a micro tear. But there’s some tearing in there. The PRP is intended to repair the damage there.

  10. #160
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    I think the key element to the "other transition pitchers" discussion is that Tanaka had a path to a reasonably effective continuing career. CC not discussed here had one. Timmy didn't.

    I think Sale has a narrow path to a reasonably effective continuing career depending on how much real damage there is in that elbow. A better Change than the one he features now, the same Slider and FB velo in the 91-94 range and mostly 91-93 could be Sale's path. I have serious doubts Chris can go backwards to where he was. Biggest issue IMO.....Chris is going to fight it. He is IMO going to try to go back to where he was.

  11. #161
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    Ehen it comes to pitcher reinventing themselves, the best success story - and one no one has mentioned - is former Sox SP Frank Tanana. Some of you might remember him. (His Sox tenure was rather nondescript, however.)

    Tanana came up at 19 pitching for the Angels alongside Nolan Ryan, and threw nearly as hard. But by age 25, completely ruined his arm.

    He came back immediately throwing a huge variety of curveballs, and while he wasn’t the elite pitcher prior to his injury, managed to pitch in MLB until he was 39 years old.

    If Sale has to reinvent himself, it can be done quickly. And it can be very successful...

  12. #162
    MVP vegasbob's Avatar
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    Here's the good news. You will have 5 years to watch and pay significant money for a pitcher who failed to finish the last two seasons with some combination of shoulder and elbow stress injuries . Skinny or fat, hard fastball or junk curve lollipops, the Sox have him now. Hope springs eternal but Chris Sale will be the next anchor on the payroll for a while to come. Realistically and based on Chris's history, the Sox would be better off holding Sale out of baseball activity, having a very late ST ramp up next May, and see if he can get from June through September when it may count.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by vegasbob View Post
    Here's the good news. You will have 5 years to watch and pay significant money for a pitcher who failed to finish the last two seasons with some combination of shoulder and elbow stress injuries . Skinny or fat, hard fastball or junk curve lollipops, the Sox have him now. Hope springs eternal but Chris Sale will be the next anchor on the payroll for a while to come. Realistically and based on Chris's history, the Sox would be better off holding Sale out of baseball activity, having a very late ST ramp up next May, and see if he can get from June through September when it may count.
    The baseball version of Ron Gronkowski but on a guaranteed contract.

  14. #164
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    doom and gloom post:
    if it ends up TJS or he never fully recovers and cannot pitch....he would have thrown a total of 0 pitches on the shiny new 5 year contract. would that go down as the worst contract of all time???
    other names i have posted under: none

  15. #165
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    What a terrible contract. That’s all i have to say. The guy has been babied a lot and he can’t stay healthy. A miserable season comes to an end.

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