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Thread: A Realistic View at 2020: Part I

  1. #4576
    TalkSox Godhead mvp 78's Avatar
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    They should have built a team to win (lots of lower cost guys that they let sign elsewhere), but moved Mookie and Price if the opportunity came up. Sitting around and waiting for a deal seems like the worst move to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Remy View Post
    Now Im not sure why it was necessary, but watch ... I cant circle because I dont have my telestrator but HERE COMES THE PIZZA, see?

  2. #4577
    Deity Slasher9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    This is just a total fallacy. Resetting the tax rate does not mean we can pay Mookie $400 million.
    would you say the odds are better to sign Mookie to a LTC if we reset this season?
    i believe JH thinks that.
    other names i have posted under: none

  3. #4578
    I just keep going back to the law of averages -- and this -- how many fans and experts expected the Red Sox to contend a year ago? And now, how many expect them not to?

    I hope most would admit and remember the answer to the first was just about everyone. This season Boston returns the same basic group of talented regulars and starting pitchers that set that franchise record for wins just two years ago.

    Forget 108, but not even 90? It all comes down to the mound... some point to '18 heroics from Sale, Price and Eovaldi and hope for more; others look at injuries from '19 and predict even less. Is it unreasonable to expect something in between? After all, the Big Three has averaged a combined 39 wins per year in their careers (including last season's MASH unit when they combined for only 15). Don't forget the Red Sox won 93 in each of '17 and '16 -- the former with Price on the DL, the latter with Sale pitching for Chicago.

    First base lost its combo of All-Star/WS MVP (for now). Second base has been an issue-- at least turning the DP, since DP himself has been out. The Sox also lost some valuable arms in Kimbrel, Kelly and Porcello -- none are as good as they were, but all are casualties of constricted payroll... which has prevented replacing them with name pitchers.

    Less glamorous alternatives are a facet of roster refinement that Sox fans are just not used to under current ownership. This is where we'll have to wait and see, and trust in Chaim Bloom... and not doom and gloom.

    Pitchers and catchers are coming soon -- even if we don't recognize them!

  4. #4579
    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher9 View Post
    would you say the odds are better to sign Mookie to a LTC if we reset this season?
    i believe JH thinks that.
    I think the Sox reset by the end of the season, so they won't be taxed $100 mil and lose draft picks when they back up the truck for Mookie. Then they'll have another couple years or a new CBA before they have to worry about resetting again.

  5. #4580
    TalkSox Godhead mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    I think the Sox reset by the end of the season, so they won't be taxed $100 mil and lose draft picks when they back up the truck for Mookie. Then they'll have another couple years or a new CBA before they have to worry about resetting again.
    Once the season starts, it gets harder and harder to get under the tax. If they get through 50% of the season, they'd have to dump Price and Mookie to get under the cap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Remy View Post
    Now Im not sure why it was necessary, but watch ... I cant circle because I dont have my telestrator but HERE COMES THE PIZZA, see?

  6. #4581
    Deity Slasher9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    I just keep going back to the law of averages -- and this -- how many fans and experts expected the Red Sox to contend a year ago? And now, how many expect them not to?

    I hope most would admit and remember the answer to the first was just about everyone. This season Boston returns the same basic group of talented regulars and starting pitchers that set that franchise record for wins just two years ago.

    Forget 108, but not even 90? It all comes down to the mound... some point to '18 heroics from Sale, Price and Eovaldi and hope for more; others look at injuries from '19 and predict even less. Is it unreasonable to expect something in between? After all, the Big Three has averaged a combined 39 wins per year in their careers (including last season's MASH unit when they combined for only 15). Don't forget the Red Sox won 93 in each of '17 and '16 -- the former with Price on the DL, the latter with Sale pitching for Chicago.

    First base lost its combo of All-Star/WS MVP (for now). Second base has been an issue-- at least turning the DP, since DP himself has been out. The Sox also lost some valuable arms in Kimbrel, Kelly and Porcello -- none are as good as they were, but all are casualties of constricted payroll... which has prevented replacing them with name pitchers.

    Less glamorous alternatives are a facet of roster refinement that Sox fans are just not used to under current ownership. This is where we'll have to wait and see, and trust in Chaim Bloom... and not doom and gloom.

    Pitchers and catchers are coming soon -- even if we don't recognize them!
    i dont disagree with any of this.
    the only thing i can say is that IMO the only way we can sign Mookie to a LTC is if we reset the luxury tax. we have to shed payroll from this current roster in order to reset. so while i would cheer and hope for a mid 90 win season from the current team, i just dont see how we can have the current team as-is and sign mookie next offseason. we need to shed payroll prior to ASB.
    other names i have posted under: none

  7. #4582
    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    If Mookie walks out that door, he's not coming back in.
    I totally agree with this. I can't imagine he'd agree to do the company a big favor by transferring his office to another part of the country for six months only to come back next winter. A club that once fought him -- and lost -- on arbitration should now bend over backwards to accommodate Betts all season if they want him to re-up.

  8. #4583
    Deity Slasher9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    I think the Sox reset by the end of the season, so they won't be taxed $100 mil and lose draft picks when they back up the truck for Mookie. Then they'll have another couple years or a new CBA before they have to worry about resetting again.
    agreed.
    other names i have posted under: none

  9. #4584
    Legend S5Dewey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    If anybody can pay Betts $400M, it's Henry and a small few other owners willing to take that plunge.

    My guess is he gets $350M/10 or 11.

    Certainly resetting makes it more doable, but even if someone outbids us, that money can be used (with much lower taxes) to sign multiple players to get us back to the top.

    50% of $35M is $17.5M. 20% is $7M. That $10M in year one can get us a decent player or two.
    The more I look at this situation the less I like it and the more I think we should just let Mookie walk and not resign him. "BLASPHEME" you say?

    Here's the problem with letting Mookie go and then resigning him for $375/11. (notice that I've split the two estimates of $350M & $400M since they're both estimates anyway). It's a short term solution to a long term problem.

    If we resign him for $34M/year for 11 years we're still on the hook for $34M/year for one player. All we've done is kick the LT can down the road a couple of years and after that couple of years we'll still be on that hook for $34M when we'll be looking at Devers' contract as well as replacing JDM's bat + trying to rebuild a pitching staff with the "leftover" money. I question that's even feasible unless JH wants to get back into the high LT cycle/rebuilding again - only this time with Mookie's salary guaranteed.

    I'm seriously beginning to wonder if it's not smarter to spread that $34M around rather than pour it all into one player who only comes to bat every nine AB's and can only play one position in the field. Injury risk aside, I'd rather put that money into a FA pitcher in a front-loaded deal.
    It's a mere moment in a man's life between the All-Star game and the Old Timer's game.
    -Vin Scully

  10. #4585
    Deity Slasher9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    If Mookie walks out that door, he's not coming back in.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    I totally agree with this. I can't imagine he'd agree to do the company a big favor by transferring his office to another part of the country for six months only to come back next winter. A club that once fought him -- and lost -- on arbitration should now bend over backwards to accommodate Betts all season if they want him to re-up.
    in many many cases i would agree with you. not with mookie. he has been let it known over and over that he is going to FA and the reason is to maximize his $$$. he will sign the biggest contract. full stop. it wont matter what team it is. he could be traded 10x this season and all 10 teams will be in contention to sign Mookie Betts if they offer the biggest $$$ contract.
    other names i have posted under: none

  11. #4586
    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    Forget 108, but not even 90? It all comes down to the mound... some point to '18 heroics from Sale, Price and Eovaldi and hope for more; others look at injuries from '19 and predict even less. Is it unreasonable to expect something in between? After all, the Big Three has averaged a combined 39 wins per year in their careers (including last season's MASH unit when they combined for only 15). Don't forget the Red Sox won 93 in each of '17 and '16 -- the former with Price on the DL, the latter with Sale pitching for Chicago.
    I think it's reasonable to expect that Price & Eovaldi will make about 20-25 starts each and have trips to the injured list. So of those 20-25 starts, the big question is how quality will they be? I hope that Eovaldi at least will show us the talent he showed in parts of 2018, but realistically the 40-50 starts overall will probably end up around league average (4.10 ERA combined).

    Sale is the big question mark. I'm really worried he breaks down by the end of April and needs Tommy John surgery.

  12. #4587
    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Once the season starts, it gets harder and harder to get under the tax. If they get through 50% of the season, they'd have to dump Price and Mookie to get under the cap.
    Price or Eovaldi and JBJ won't do it? Isn't the payroll number the MLB looks at the same at season's end as the beginning (I understand that acquisitions can alter it, but with additions also come subtractions?)?

  13. #4588
    TalkSox Godhead mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S5Dewey View Post
    I'm seriously beginning to wonder if it's not smarter to spread that $34M around rather than pour it all into one player who only comes to bat every nine AB's and can only play one position in the field. Injury risk aside, I'd rather put that money into a FA pitcher in a front-loaded deal.
    It really just depends on if they money is spent the right way. It's hard to give up Mookie if you're only getting 3 Ryan Dempsters back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Remy View Post
    Now Im not sure why it was necessary, but watch ... I cant circle because I dont have my telestrator but HERE COMES THE PIZZA, see?

  14. #4589
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    This season Boston returns the same basic group of talented regulars and starting pitchers that set that franchise record for wins just two years ago.

    This is just plain false.

    Yes, some additions by subtractions listed below, but look at who we replaced these guys with...

    Missing from the 2018 roster are (listed by most PAs or IP in 2018):
    PA
    6. Nunez 502
    8. Moreland 459
    9. Holt 367
    10. Leon 288
    12. Swihart 207
    13. HRam 195
    14. Pearce 165 (very important in playoffs)
    15. Kinsler 143
    IP
    1. Porcello 191
    5. Johnson 99 (still in system- not on 40 man roster)
    7. Pomeranz 74
    8. Kelly 66
    9. Kimbrel 62 (most high leverage)
    13 Wright 54
    16 Thornburg 24

    8 out of the top 15 PA guys gone.
    6 of the top 13 IP guys gone.

    This is NOT the 2018 team, and neither was the 2019 team.

    Sox 4 Ever

  15. #4590
    TalkSox Godhead mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    Price or Eovaldi and JBJ won't do it? Isn't the payroll number the MLB looks at the same at season's end as the beginning (I understand that acquisitions can alter it, but with additions also come subtractions?)?
    I believe they would still have to factor in the % of games played. So if Mookie plays 81 games and gets traded, it still counts as 13.5 against the cap.

    It's not "what's the AAV payroll at year's end" but rather the total payroll $$$'s spent in 2020.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Remy View Post
    Now Im not sure why it was necessary, but watch ... I cant circle because I dont have my telestrator but HERE COMES THE PIZZA, see?

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