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Thread: Mookie and Andrew Mcutchen .....

  1. #166
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Nobody loved Webster and de la Rosa either, but they sure loved the parade in 2013. (Was anyone pining for AGon & Beckett?)

    None of these guys were popular at the time of the trade. Not sure what this has to do with Betts, though.
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  2. #167
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch View Post
    He's 5'9". He's small
    Yes, he's slightly below average height. Big deal. His weight is listed as 180. He smokes the ball and he can throw a ball 300 feet. He's got physical strength to spare for the game of baseball.
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  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    None of these guys were popular at the time of the trade. Not sure what this has to do with Betts, though.
    Nomar was one half season removed from being a 6fWAR player when he was traded. Fred Lynn was valued at 8.6 fWAR one season before being dealt. That really is Betts territory.

    The Lynn trade didnít work out, largely because Sullivan made a stupid trade. (Why was Lynn traded?).

    It will be a tough sell if Betts gets traded. But if trading Betts is the first step to resetting and bringing him back long term, sign me up...

  4. #169
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Nomar was one half season removed from being a 6fWAR player when he was traded.
    That's true, but he was also in the process of rapidly destroying his popularity with the mystery injury, sitting out the infamous loss to the Yanks etc. in the midst of an obviously crucial season for the team.
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  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    That's true, but he was also in the process of rapidly destroying his popularity with the mystery injury, sitting out the infamous loss to the Yanks etc. in the midst of an obviously crucial season for the team.
    All stuff Betts is not immune to.

    The fact is Nomar was King for a long time. That he had a very quick and overblown fall from grace just shows how temporary those titles can be.

    Sox fans like stars, because when this team sucked, we still rooted for Boggs to win a batting title or Clemens to win the ERA title or strikeout title. But that was then, when we didnít see an end to a drought that started during World War I. Now weíve seen rings and flown flags and had multiple parades. Think about - the Sox longest title drought is 86 years. The second longest - nine years, and that one ended in 1912. The longest title drought since 2000 - 6 years (2007-2013). Not only does this team take titles, it takes them without making everyone wait. And THAT is the new norm for Red Sox fans...

  6. #171
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    All stuff Betts is not immune to.

    The fact is Nomar was King for a long time. That he had a very quick and overblown fall from grace just shows how temporary those titles can be.

    Sox fans like stars, because when this team sucked, we still rooted for Boggs to win a batting title or Clemens to win the ERA title or strikeout title. But that was then, when we didn’t see an end to a drought that started during World War I. Now we’ve seen rings and flown flags and had multiple parades. Think about - the Sox longest title drought is 86 years. The second longest - nine years, and that one ended in 1912. The longest title drought since 2000 - 6 years (2007-2013). Not only does this team take titles, it takes them without making everyone wait. And THAT is the new norm for Red Sox fans...
    If you're going to trade a player like Mookie, though, there has to be a great reason for doing so.

    Cutting payroll to save luxury tax is not a great reason for Mr. Average Fan.
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  7. #172
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    None of these guys were popular at the time of the trade. Not sure what this has to do with Betts, though.
    Nobody cared who these guys were. Some felt we could have gotten more for AGon, despite us dumping CC.

    Despite trading one of our best players, we won the ring the very next year and all was forgotten.

    I'm not asking us to forget Betts- I'm hoping we re-sign him and win a ring in 2021 or 2022. Trading him (then getting him back) first might make that more likely.
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  8. #173
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    If you're going to trade a player like Mookie, though, there has to be a great reason for doing so.

    Cutting payroll to save luxury tax is not a great reason for Mr. Average Fan.
    No, but winning in 2021 or 2022 would help them get over it.
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  9. #174
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Nobody cared who these guys were. Some felt we could have gotten more for AGon, despite us dumping CC.

    Despite trading one of our best players, we won the ring the very next year and all was forgotten.
    AGon was not popular. Most of that 2012 team was not very popular, after the 2011 collapse and in the midst of a crappy season with a clown manager.
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  10. #175
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    No, but winning in 2021 or 2022 would help them get over it.
    Sure, but the odds of that happening so soon are not great.
    Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1

  11. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Yes, he's slightly below average height. Big deal. His weight is listed as 180. He smokes the ball and he can throw a ball 300 feet. He's got physical strength to spare for the game of baseball.
    Only 180?!?!?

    I tried as hard as I could to research other puny guys to see how they aged, and could only come up with these shrimps (so far):

    AGE 37
    Mays 170 pounds, .860 OPS, 5.7 WAR
    Clemente 175 pounds, .835 OPS, 4.8 WAR
    Aaron 180 pounds, 1.079 OPS, 7.2 WAR

  12. #177
    Here are a few contemporaries of Mays, Clemente and Aaron -- except I can't report their age 37 seasons, because they were all out of baseball by then... so here are numbers for the final year of each:

    AGE 36
    Frank Howard: 255 pounds, .789 OPS, 0.0 WAR

    AGE 35
    Boog Powell: 230 pounds, .659 OPS, 0.0 WAR

    AGE 33
    Bull Luzinski: 220 pounds, .693 OPS, -0.3 WAR

  13. #178
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Sure, but the odds of that happening so soon are not great.
    The odds would be better, if we got something for Betts and then re-signed him.

    Either way, if we re-sign Betts after 2020, I doubt there will be much lingering issues with the fans, except for during 2020.
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  14. #179
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    The odds would be better, if we got something for Betts and then re-signed him.

    Either way, if we re-sign Betts after 2020, I doubt there will be much lingering issues with the fans, except for during 2020.
    Trading him and then trying to re-sign is certainly an option, but it sure is an icky one.
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  15. #180
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Trading him and then trying to re-sign is certainly an option, but it sure is an icky one.
    I'm not saying I like the option, but it might be better than these two options...

    1) Losing Betts after 2020 and getting only a comp pick. (The ickiest choice, unless we win a 2020 ring.)
    2) Trading Betts and not re-signing him after 2020.
    3) Not trading Betts, missing the playoffs in 2020, then re-signing him.
    4) Not trading Betts, missing the playoffs in 2020, then not re-signing him.

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