JDM says absolutely no cheating and team will be cleared

[jad]

Like I said sophistry. But here is quick summary not all rule violations are cheating but all cheating violates rules. Ponder that conundrum.

As to Aquinas I suggest the Summa Theologica in the original Latin. I could at one time read Latin.(Unfortunately I lost my copy somewhere between our move from Spain to Kuwait. Or was it between Suriname and Spain, we moved so often it is difficult to recall and was 40 years ago. In any case it so hard to keep up one's Latin fluency these days as there are no ancient Romans around. And those that are all speak Italian, Castellano, or one of the other romance languages)
But it was a paraphrase not the actual quote.
Finally because man is a fallable being cheating takes place in all sports which is why there are referees and commissioners empowered to enforce the rules. These commissioners suspend and ban players as the need arises. So obviously these officials spend a lot of effort to distinguish between the cheaters and non cheaters. So clearly they think there is a difference.

(BTW I fibbed while I did study and could read Latin at one time, I read the Summa in English. The Dominican who taught Aquinas said we could so it wasn't cheating. It was a philosophy class not a Latin class.)
I know that does not answer all your questions but I had fun writing it.

Yeah, I realize that. We actually agree that the diff. between ch/non-ch. is 'arbitrary' (in the literal sense). (Ha ha! cool on the Latin.)

[jung]

It’s not hard at all ownership didn’t know. The opposing teams who were looking for other teams cheating didn’t say anything. The advance scouts for other teams didn’t say anything despite hearing that banging every game they went to. Why would ownership know? Do you think they knew about the whole plot as if they were in on it? Not likely. Cora couldn’t even get Hinch on board (reportedly).

Naming all the players is just a bad, bad idea. Do you also want them wearing scarlet “C”’s for the rest of their careers? Look at how naming players in PED scandals turned out. Did it get rid of them? Did they accomplish the goal of teaching aspiring high schoolers that they don’t need steroids to make the big league? Or did it turn all of MLB into a massive witch hunt that not only re-enforced needing steroids to make the majors, but also taught them the most severe penalty they will ever face is not getting into Cooperstown. At least on the first try.

It also didn’t get them out of the game.

And naming players won’t stop electronic sign stealing either. Getting rid of hand signs might..

If you cannot even censure the guilty what are they doing? Why suspend anybody if they can't even censure the rest of the guilty. Suppose there were some players that did not participate. What, they get to be thrown under the bus with everybody else? I don't care if the guilty have to wear that distinction for the rest of their careers or not. POOR BABIES!

As for being completely uncurious in upper management with what was going on with their own team that is the oldest dodge in the book. What is upper management being paid for, to choose next month's bobble-head? That is Mike Pence claiming he just has no idea why his trip to Ukraine for Zalinsky's inauguration was canceled. Has anybody even asked upper management the question about the trash can banging? "What did you think of all that banging coming from your tunnel during home games?" No ....no interest in the answer?

None of the other teams questioning the trash can banging is an interesting question all its own. But again, my personal feeling on where dead between the ears baseball is at this point is that they are all uncurious about what the fuck that trash can banging was about possibly because there has been and is so much Organic cheating in baseball. But there is the rub. The apparent inability for anybody to fully grasp the difference between Organic cheating (loading the baseball, too much pin tar on the bat, corking the bat etc), Organic Sign stealing which is not even against the rules of baseball and the systematic in game real time use of electronics and video to steal signs is breathtaking for its obliviousness and complete willingness to shove just anything under the carpet. Media appears remarkably uncurious in this as well. I am more inclined to think that if there was a real investigation as opposed to an effort to shape the result, the chances that everybody but a few guys escapes is far less than that at some level everybody in that Houston Organization knew.

All the players that participated should be called out by name. I don't see how anybody could argue otherwise.

[mvp 78]

I like pitchers hitting

Swing and a miss

[Elktonnick]

Swing and a miss

But when they connect.

[jad]

Loved watching Jerry Casales hit. Even Dick Raddatz got some good swings, no? (But it really isn't baseball!)

[notin]

I like pitchers hitting

I’d be ok with it if they took it seriously, but so few of them do...

[notin]

If you cannot even censure the guilty what are they doing? Why suspend anybody if they can't even censure the rest of the guilty. Suppose there were some players that did not participate. What, they get to be thrown under the bus with everybody else? I don't care if the guilty have to wear that distinction for the rest of their careers or not. POOR BABIES!

If they weren’t guilty, they had a chance to talk. I thought you were opposed to an omertà defense.

As for being completely uncurious in upper management with what was going on with their own team that is the oldest dodge in the book. What is upper management being paid for, to choose next month's bobble-head? That is Mike Pence claiming he just has no idea why his trip to Ukraine for Zalinsky's inauguration was canceled. Has anybody even asked upper management the question about the trash can banging? "What did you think of all that banging coming from your tunnel during home games?" No ....no interest in the answer

None of the other teams questioning the trash can banging is an interesting question all its own. But again, my personal feeling on where dead between the ears baseball is at this point is that they are all uncurious about what the fuck that trash can banging was about possibly because there has been and is so much Organic cheating in baseball. But there is the rub. The apparent inability for anybody to fully grasp the difference between Organic cheating (loading the baseball, too much pin tar on the bat, corking the bat etc), Organic Sign stealing which is not even against the rules of baseball and the systematic in game real time use of electronics and video to steal signs is breathtaking for its obliviousness and complete willingness to shove just anything under the carpet. Media appears remarkably uncurious in this as well. I am more inclined to think that if there was a real investigation as opposed to an effort to shape the result, the chances that everybody but a few guys escapes is far less than that at some level everybody in that Houston Organization knew.

All the players that participated should be called out by name. I don't see how anybody could argue otherwise.

I have no idea why you think the media isn’t curious. Google “Astros sign stealing” and you will get millions of hits.

I’d rather see the team punished than the individual players. This was a system out in place by coaches and the players accepted it. The naming of names does nothing but satisfy the bloodlust of a witch hunter. That’s been proven already...

[Elktonnick]

Loved watching Jerry Casales hit. Even Dick Raddatz got some good swings, no? (But it really isn't baseball!)

Of course it is. By that logic they should adopt NFL.style platoons. 9 offense and 9 defensive players. That really isn't baseball.

[Bellhorn04]

Of course it is. By that logic they should adopt NFL.style platoons. 9 offense and 9 defensive players. That really isn't baseball.

Very few people actually enjoy watching pitchers 'hit'.

Pitchers are at an obvious disadvantage because of their limited usage. The NL leader in innings pitched, Strasburg, only came to the plate 80 times in 2019.

Pitchers ARE specialists. The game isn't pure. There are pinch hitters, pinch runners, relief pitchers, defensive replacements.

[Elktonnick]

Very few people actually enjoy watching pitchers 'hit'.

Pitchers are at an obvious disadvantage because of their limited usage. The NL leader in innings pitched, Strasburg, only came to the plate 80 times in 2019.

Pitchers ARE specialists. The game isn't pure. There are pinch hitters, pinch runners, relief pitchers, defensive replacements.

Every game has replacements including Rugby Union and soccer. But the idea is our nine against your nine. That is the baseball we played since our childhood.

[Bellhorn04]

Every game has replacements including Rugby Union and soccer. But the idea is our nine against your nine. That is the baseball we played since our childhood.

Did you not have baseball games as a kid where there were more than eighteen kids and you'd have to make substitutions?

Or pitchers who had to come out because their arms were sore?

[jung]

If they weren’t guilty, they had a chance to talk. I thought you were opposed to an omertà defense.



I have no idea why you think the media isn’t curious. Google “Astros sign stealing” and you will get millions of hits.

I’d rather see the team punished than the individual players. This was a system out in place by coaches and the players accepted it. The naming of names does nothing but satisfy the bloodlust of a witch hunter. That’s been proven already...

The Houston Report claims the system was designed mainly to benefit the players. The players should be named PERIOD! If there is a video and audio of an Astro's player at the plate while trash can banging occurs that player should be named. This should not even be a decision.

[Elktonnick]

Did you not have baseball games as a kid where there were more than eighteen kids and you'd have to make substitutions?

Or pitchers who had to come out because their arms were sore?

Sure but mostly we had less than 18 in our pickup games. No one ever came out. We played until it got dark.

[Bellhorn04]

The Houston Report claims the system was designed mainly to benefit the players. The players should be named PERIOD! If there is a video and audio of an Astro's player at the plate while trash can banging occurs that player should be named. This should not even be a decision.

In theory this might mean suspending every single Astro hitter who came to the plate in 2017. It would be a ludicrous outcome.

[Bellhorn04]

Sure but mostly we had less than 18 in our pickup games. No one ever came out. We played until it got dark.

Oh yeah, I played in those games too. But as soon as you got to Little League, things were a lot different.