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Thread: Mookie Betts and David Price have been traded to Dodgers

  1. #1741
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Wow, you're even sillier than I realized. This is about baseball luxury tax, not American tax law.
    Ad hominem attacks aren' t silly.

  2. #1742
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elktonnick View Post
    Ad hominem attacks aren' t silly.
    And yet you're the one who thinks it's fine to mock a Canadian's knowledge of American tax law.
    Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1

    The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.

  3. #1743
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    And yet you're the one who thinks it's fine to mock a Canadian's knowledge of American tax law.
    So are you knowledgeable on American Tax law?

  4. #1744
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elktonnick View Post
    So are you knowledgeable on American Tax law?
    No, but there are other Canadian accountants who are. In any case it's irrelevant to the factors that motivated the Red Sox to trade Betts.
    Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1

    The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.

  5. #1745
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    No, but there are other Canadian accountants who are. In any case it's irrelevant to the factors that motivated the Red Sox to trade Betts.
    On that we can agree. The Sox allegedly traded Betts to give Bloom flexibility to wheel and deal. It only makes baseball sense if Bloom is successful especially at getting pitching help and rebuilding the farm. So far no pitching help.

  6. #1746
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elktonnick View Post
    On that we can agree. The Sox allegedly traded Betts to give Bloom flexibility to wheel and deal. It only makes baseball sense if Bloom is successful especially at getting pitching help and rebuilding the farm. So far no pitching help.
    So if you acknowledge it was to “give flexibility,” you’re finally admitting the Sox were at their spending limits. Hence the need for a salary dump.

    But, yes, pitching...

  7. #1747
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    So if you acknowledge it was to “give flexibility,” you’re finally admitting the Sox were at their spending limits. Hence the need for a salary dump.

    But, yes, pitching...
    No I don't admit that at all. What I admit is that was what the Red Sox alleged, which was what I posted. Your skill at analyzing the written word is really quite poor.

    Moreover that would only make baseball sense if Bloom were to actually do what their alleged intentions are. Has any one seen yet any moves to improve pitching in any meaningful way at the major or minor league levels yet? I don't think so.

  8. #1748
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Getting out from under half of Price's remaining 3 years of his contract was a very important aspect of the trade. It should greatly affect our team for 3 years and maybe more. Bloom is known to work wonders with a winter spending budget of $16M or less, and a lot will depend on what he does with those savings, when we measure how well this deal works out. It's not really part of the deal, but ultimately, it works out that way. When we dumped Crawford, and to some extent Beckett, by including AGon in the mega deal with the Dodgers, the effect was we were able to sign Vic, Napoli & Dempster. We won a ring, largely based on those signings, but had we not, we'd likely be viewing that trade differently by now.

    Waiting for the deadline to try and trade Betts and Price could certainly have worked out better, but it would have been a wild gamble. I seriously doubt we'd be able to reset the tax, something some here still don't this was a high need thing to do. It obviously was a mandate not a priority all along. If Price got hurt or struggle to start 2020, we'd be screwed. For all we know, we might have been forced to trade Bogey & Betts to reset at the deadline (saving us just $16M on the tax line).

    The other part of the trade was the return. I'm fine with haggling over what we got and damaged goods and all, but it's not like we had multiple good or better offers on the table. The Padre offer looked like a joke. As great as Betts is and will be, we traded one year of control- ONE YEAR! We have set ourselves up to resign him after 2020- something we never would be able to do had we not reset. If we end up missing out on Betts, we'll still be set up to make a substantial rebuild through signings and trades that we could and would not have been able to do without resetting.

    We got...

    5 years of Verdugo (2 pre arb years): Even if he misses a year with a bad back, we still can get a lot of value from this guy. He's not a bust, IMO. All this crap about his character is conjecture, at this point. He may disappoint, but I feel, at worst, he gives us 2-3 WAR for 4-5 years: at best he gives us 4-6 WAR.

    5 years of Downs: This guy could turn into a major gain. I realize it's speculation, but he's our #1 or 2 prospect according to every ranking service.

    5 years of Wong: This guy has a lot of potential on offense but lacks a clear position. At worst, he may replace JD at DH someday while being a 3rd string catcher/utility depth option.

    I seriously doubt we could have got a better package than this one. To say waiting would have been better is pure speculation. Sure, maybe we could have, but the money part of the equation looks very sketchy by July.

    We NEEDED to RESET! I know that's just an opinion, but I sincerely think it was vital. I also think Henry and Bloom felt the same way.

    Our extended future is much better off now, than before the trade. Our chances in 2020 took a big hit. I'm not denying that, and for those who felt we had a very good chance to win in 2020, I understand your frustration or anger, but let's give this deal some time. It's not the type of deal anyone can definitively judge 2 weeks after being made.

    If Price bounces back and Verdugo flops, it may look bad. If Price sucks for 3 years, Verdugo and others do well, and we use the money saved to choose wisely, we may view this deal like the last Dodger dump trade- a huge success.

    Sox 4 Ever

  9. #1749
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Getting out from under half of Price's remaining 3 years of his contract was a very important aspect of the trade. It should greatly affect our team for 3 years and maybe more. Bloom is known to work wonders with a winter spending budget of $16M or less, and a lot will depend on what he does with those savings, when we measure how well this deal works out. It's not really part of the deal, but ultimately, it works out that way. When we dumped Crawford, and to some extent Beckett, by including AGon in the mega deal with the Dodgers, the effect was we were able to sign Vic, Napoli & Dempster. We won a ring, largely based on those signings, but had we not, we'd likely be viewing that trade differently by now.

    Waiting for the deadline to try and trade Betts and Price could certainly have worked out better, but it would have been a wild gamble. I seriously doubt we'd be able to reset the tax, something some here still don't this was a high need thing to do. It obviously was a mandate not a priority all along. If Price got hurt or struggle to start 2020, we'd be screwed. For all we know, we might have been forced to trade Bogey & Betts to reset at the deadline (saving us just $16M on the tax line).

    The other part of the trade was the return. I'm fine with haggling over what we got and damaged goods and all, but it's not like we had multiple good or better offers on the table. The Padre offer looked like a joke. As great as Betts is and will be, we traded one year of control- ONE YEAR! We have set ourselves up to resign him after 2020- something we never would be able to do had we not reset. If we end up missing out on Betts, we'll still be set up to make a substantial rebuild through signings and trades that we could and would not have been able to do without resetting.

    We got...

    5 years of Verdugo (2 pre arb years): Even if he misses a year with a bad back, we still can get a lot of value from this guy. He's not a bust, IMO. All this crap about his character is conjecture, at this point. He may disappoint, but I feel, at worst, he gives us 2-3 WAR for 4-5 years: at best he gives us 4-6 WAR.

    5 years of Downs: This guy could turn into a major gain. I realize it's speculation, but he's our #1 or 2 prospect according to every ranking service.

    5 years of Wong: This guy has a lot of potential on offense but lacks a clear position. At worst, he may replace JD at DH someday while being a 3rd string catcher/utility depth option.

    I seriously doubt we could have got a better package than this one. To say waiting would have been better is pure speculation. Sure, maybe we could have, but the money part of the equation looks very sketchy by July.

    We NEEDED to RESET! I know that's just an opinion, but I sincerely think it was vital. I also think Henry and Bloom felt the same way.

    Our extended future is much better off now, than before the trade. Our chances in 2020 took a big hit. I'm not denying that, and for those who felt we had a very good chance to win in 2020, I understand your frustration or anger, but let's give this deal some time. It's not the type of deal anyone can definitively judge 2 weeks after being made.

    If Price bounces back and Verdugo flops, it may look bad. If Price sucks for 3 years, Verdugo and others do well, and we use the money saved to choose wisely, we may view this deal like the last Dodger dump trade- a huge success.

    That is a fair summary of the situation. I do quibble with the assumption that the club needed to resett. By their own admission, the FO said that was merely a goal not a necessity.
    The problem is that the Red Sox defrauded all their customers who bought season tickets based on the statement that they were going to make every effort to retain and resign Betts when clearly they had no intention of doing so.
    Finally I am really pissed that Henry decided to tank the 2020 season.
    Last edited by Elktonnick; 02-16-2020 at 12:39 PM.

  10. #1750
    The following is the title of an interesting article in the Athletic posted on Feb 15 Buckley: Baggage-laden Alex Verdugo arrives in the Fenway spotlight facing questions about more than his play

  11. #1751
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elktonnick View Post
    That is a fair summary of the situation. I do quibble with the assumption that the club needed to resett. By their own admission, the FO said that was merely a goal not a necessity.
    The problem is that the Red Sox defrauded all their customers who bought season tickets based on the statement that they were going to make every effort to retain and resign Betts when clearly they had no intention of doing so.
    Finally I am really passed that Henry decided to tank the 2020 season.
    They needed to reset, IMO. Maybe the choice was reset, now or after 2020, and if that was the case, it seems now was the better choice, again, IMO. (Improve for 3+ years vs just one year-2020- not that 2020 would be an improvement over 2019 on paper- it clearly would not be unless we spent over the $40M line again.)

    They likely searched for ways to reset without trading Betts, and either there was no way or the choices were so horrible, trading Betts became the only viable option.

    If season ticket holders really felt like there was no way Betts was being traded based on a few statements that were contrary to other statements, and you want to call it a "defrauding," I won't argue with that point. I, for one, knew all along a reset was highly probable and that trading Price alone was not going to get us there. Trading Price and not giving JBJ a contract might have, but we'd have not a penny to spend on 2020 and still reset. No Perex, no Peraza and no Pillar. You think we'd win inn 2020 with Betts and no other holes filled?

    Sure, we'd have a better chance than now, but it's not idiotic to do what Bloom did. He greatly improved the outlook for 2021, 2022 and beyond- both financially and physically. Even if every player we got back for Betts flops, the $16M we saved on Price should make us better in 2021 & 2022.

    I know the odds are very long we bring back Betts, but they are better now than had we kept him and not reset.

    If we miss out on Betts this coming winter, my hope is we spend well and get back to the top much sooner than had we waited. It's a valid position to hold, but no position can be proven as right as of now.
    Sox 4 Ever

  12. #1752
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    They needed to reset, IMO. Maybe the choice was reset, now or after 2020, and if that was the case, it seems now was the better choice, again, IMO. (Improve for 3+ years vs just one year-2020- not that 2020 would be an improvement over 2019 on paper- it clearly would not be unless we spent over the $40M line again.)

    They likely searched for ways to reset without trading Betts, and either there was no way or the choices were so horrible, trading Betts became the only viable option.

    If season ticket holders really felt like there was no way Betts was being traded based on a few statements that were contrary to other statements, and you want to call it a "defrauding," I won't argue with that point. I, for one, knew all along a reset was highly probable and that trading Price alone was not going to get us there. Trading Price and not giving JBJ a contract might have, but we'd have not a penny to spend on 2020 and still reset. No Perex, no Peraza and no Pillar. You think we'd win inn 2020 with Betts and no other holes filled?

    Sure, we'd have a better chance than now, but it's not idiotic to do what Bloom did. He greatly improved the outlook for 2021, 2022 and beyond- both financially and physically. Even if every player we got back for Betts flops, the $16M we saved on Price should make us better in 2021 & 2022.

    I know the odds are very long we bring back Betts, but they are better now than had we kept him and not reset.

    If we miss out on Betts this coming winter, my hope is we spend well and get back to the top much sooner than had we waited. It's a valid position to hold, but no position can be proven as right as of now.
    “We need him to be healthy to see what kind of player we have and the kind of player he knows he is,” Roenicke said. I see the new Red Sox interim manager is channeling Nancy Pelosi when they passed Obamacare years back. What could go wrong!

  13. #1753
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elktonnick View Post
    “We need him to be healthy to see what kind of player we have and the kind of player he knows he is,” Roenicke said. I see the new Red Sox interim manager is channeling Nancy Pelosi when they passed Obamacare years back. What could go wrong!
    Let's not get political.

    I'd still rather have Verdugo with no Downs or Wong or any Price salary relief than a comp pick after the 2nd or 4th rounds.

    Sure, Verdugo could flop and that comp pick could be a great one, but the odds are greater Verdugo adds more value.

    I'm glad we didn't trade for Myers or wait to the deadline- like we're still waiting for Trump's healthcare plan that will "greatly improve coverage, lower drug prices, protect existing conditions, cost less and let us all choose any doctor we want." (Ooops, did I say that out loud?)
    Sox 4 Ever

  14. #1754
    King of TalkSox a700hitter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elktonnick View Post
    “We need him to be healthy to see what kind of player we have and the kind of player he knows he is,” Roenicke said. I see the new Red Sox interim manager is channeling Nancy Pelosi when they passed Obamacare years back. What could go wrong!
    Pelosi’s back is healthier than Verdugo’s.
    The King of TalkSox has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
    Chaim, you are in the big leagues now. Drawing 10,000 fans a game is not going to cut it, and people don’t buy tickets to Fenway to talk about the Farm

    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    "Relief pitchers are a crapshoot." No, the truth is "Crapshoot pitchers are relievers."

  15. #1755
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Let's not get political.

    I'd still rather have Verdugo with no Downs or Wong or any Price salary relief than a comp pick after the 2nd or 4th rounds.

    Sure, Verdugo could flop and that comp pick could be a great one, but the odds are greater Verdugo adds more value.

    I'm glad we didn't trade for Myers or wait to the deadline- like we're still waiting for Trump's healthcare plan that will "greatly improve coverage, lower drug prices, protect existing conditions, cost less and let us all choose any doctor we want." (Ooops, did I say that out loud?)
    I am not being political but Roenicke's statement is not one which is meant to inspire confidence.

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