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Thread: The COVID 19 (coronavirus) thread

  1. #1216
    All-Star Sox75's Avatar
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    Look...

    NOBODY ever wins these political pissing matches.
    FEW ever give ANY balance to their political opinions.

    I'M 100% DOWN with knocking the bullshit off, BUT...
    when others make constant political comments, RELENTLESSLY attacking Trump in the midst of a pandemic NOBODY could be remotely prepared for, well ...

    I just can't help but give the counter-argument.

    BILATERAL DISARMAMENT anybody?
    Mutually assured destruction?
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  2. #1217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sox75 View Post
    2 FLAWED candidates ..

    Trump: speaks off the cuff too often. Conflates facts. Is sometimes a bit loose with the facts.
    Plus.... ok! Hey can kinda be a douche, so I get why many hate him.

    Still... msm OPENLY HATES him, and puts THE WORST SPIN IMMAGINABLE on every story related to Trump.

    Biden: used to be a very reasonable guy. Back when I was a Reagan Democrat.

    Started with the racially demagogic "They gonna put you all back in chains" bullshit during the 08 & 12 elections.

    Has lied repeatedly about knowing his son was working for Burisma, the most corrupt comp in Ukraine, at the exact time Joe took over Ukraine policy, where he was ostensibly "FIGHTING CORRUPTION." LOL :0

    Hunter was paid $50 - $83K/month, totalling over $3MILLION.

    He also signed a deal in 2013 to manage $1.5 BILLION for a subsidiary of the Bank of China, DIRECTLY AFTER grifting on Airforce 2, where papa Joe was managing China Policy.

    No small cheese!

    ADD TO THAT....
    - Joe simply is WAY past his prime, and often seems more than a bit out of it.
    - That recent "fireside chat," was simply aweful.

    Big choice in Nov 3, 2020.

    I get why BOTH SIDES would stick with their horse.
    One big dif is that you can tell that Biden believes in what he is doing and for all the talk of corruption, Joe left politics and government essentially broke. WHO DOES THAT! So if Joe was corrupt he certainly was not good at it. As for Hunter, Hunter is a grown man responsible for himself. If the GOP wants to yammer endlessly about Hunter, go for it. But Hunter is not running for anything and after all of this endless yammering about Hunter and after all this time nobody has successfully connected Joe to Hunter as an issue of corruption. There is simply no way to connect Joe's activity with regard to Ukraine's Chief Prosecutor to Hunter because in ridding Ukraine of Shokin the chance of an honest investigation of Burisma went UP not DOWN.

    In fact, the only time the GOP brings it up is when Biden emerges as the candidate. The GOP folded its tent on Hunter/Joe when it looked like Joe was not going to make it as the nominee. Does the whole joe/hunter dust up sound to anybody like Hillary/Bengazi which produced absolutely NOTHING after hours and hours of hearings which were folded up as soon as Hillary was no longer the candidate. Do we not see the similarly!

    As for Trump, you can't possibly believe that Trump believes his own Bullshit. He is simply riffing all of the time, 24/7 and he knows he is riffing. He is seeing the prepared notes he uses in his COVID-19 task force briefings for the first time as he opens the portfolio on the podium. He just doesn't care about anything more than winning the next 5 minutes for himself, not for the country but for himself. Since nobody is campaigning at the moment Trump has simply turned the Task Force Briefing into one of his campaign rallies.

    Obama riffed a good deal as well. But you knew that for the most part Obama believed in what he was doing from a public service perspective. Trump does not have a single drop of the Public Servant's blood in his entire system. He just doesn't. That difference did not make Obama a good President. He was not a good President. However ask me to choose between a President that is at his core a public servant and one that is not and I am going to take the public servant President every time even if I don't like his ideology or his policies.

    IMO the three worst Presidents of the modern era, each one worse than the last are Bush 43, Obama and Trump, their failings while different in each case were and are as plain as the nose on your face. You have to go back to Jimmy Carter to get the 4th worst President of the modern era. Three is a row as bad as these three characters will make you begin to lose faith in our political system and in the Electorate itself. We have simply lost our understanding of the job of Chief Executive. Most of us barely know how our own government functions and most of us couldn't care less if we tried.
    Last edited by jung; 03-25-2020 at 10:26 PM.

  3. #1218
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    Quote Originally Posted by jung View Post
    One big dif is that you can tell that Biden believes in what he is doing and for all the talk of corruption, Joe left politics and government essentially broke. WHO DOES THAT! So if Joe was corrupt he certainly was not good at it. As for Hunter, Hunter is a grown man responsible for himself. If the GOP wants to yammer endlessly about Hunter, go for it. But Hunter is not running for anything and after all of this endless yammering about Hunter and after all this time nobody has successfully connected Joe to Hunter as an issue of corruption. There is simply no way to connect Joe's activity with regard to Ukraine's Chief Prosecutor to Hunter because in ridding Ukraine of Shokin the chance of an honest investigation of Burisma went UP not DOWN.

    In fact, the only time the GOP brings it up is when Biden emerges as the candidate. The GOP folded its tent on Hunter/Joe when it looked like Joe was not going to make it as the nominee. Does the whole joe/hunter dust up sound to anybody like Hillary/Bengazi which produced absolutely NOTHING after hours and hours of hearings which were folded up as soon as Hillary was no longer the candidate. Do we not see the similarly!

    As for Trump, you can't possibly believe that Trump believes his own Bullshit. He is simply riffing all of the time, 24/7 and he knows he is riffing. He is seeing the prepared notes he uses in his COVID-19 task force briefings for the first time as he opens the portfolio on the podium. He just doesn't care about anything more than winning the next 5 minutes for himself, not for the country but for himself. Since nobody is campaigning at the moment Trump has simply turned the Task Force Briefing into one of his campaign rallies.

    Obama riffed a good deal as well. But you knew that for the most part Obama believed in what he was doing from a public service perspective. Trump does not have a single drop of the Public Servant's blood in his entire system. He just doesn't. That difference did not make Obama a good President. He was not a good President. However ask me to choose between a President that is at his core a public servant and one that is not and I am going to take the public servant President every time even if I don't like his ideology or his policies.

    IMO the three worst Presidents of the modern era, each one worse than the last are Bush 43, Obama and Trump, their failings while different in each case were and are as plain as the nose on your face. You have to go back to Jimmy Carter to get the 4th worst President of the modern era. Three is a row as bad as these three characters will make you begin to lose faith in our political system and in the Electorate itself. We have simply lost our understanding of the job of Chief Executive. Most of us barely know how our own government functions and most of us couldn't care less if we tried.

    Proves my point. Go to our separate corners, & deny the obvious about OUR guy, & hammer the "other side's guy "
    That gets us nowhere...

    * I was honest about Trump. I clearly said that I get why people HATE him. The msm bias dials that up by a factor of 100. You can't BUY that kind of daily 24/7/365 negative press for BILLION$$. Literally! You can't.
    So, the shots at Trump are easy, and they will be trumpeted 24/7/365.... and they have been for 3 1/2 long years.
    Some FAIR! Most hysterical, & often completely unhinged.
    STILL ... Some criticisms are warranted!
    * * *

    As for Joe? The case could not be clearer. You ignored all the facts, & went straight to, "you KNOW he's doing it for all the right reasons...."

    I LIKE Joe! Good old Uncle Joe! One of the only Dems to give Clarence Thomas a fair shake. I REALLY liked Joe before he became VP, and played the Race-baiting card on numerous occasions ....

    Still... the facts are clear! & frankly, they are damning.

    - Joe took over Ukraine Policy in 2014.
    - He was ostensibly & REPORTEDLY there to help FIGHT CORRUPTION.

    - 3 weeks later, Hunter takes the influence job with Burisma.
    - Burisma is THE MOST CORRUPT comp in Ukraine history

    - AGAIN.. Joe is there "to FIGHT CORRUPTION."
    - To show a would be ally a better way....

    - Hunter is paid an astounding $50 - $80 THOUSAND / MONTH, FROM THE COMPANY formed with stolen Ukraine money. Money from the people of Ukraine.
    - Ultimately well over $3 MILLION, & we still don't know exactly how much. Hunter got filthy rich by leveraging the influence of his fathers powerful position. There is no question about these facts.

    *** CRITICAL: Joe & staff are warned on multiple occasions by HIGH RANKING DIPLOMATS, that Hunter's shady dealings with Burisma is undercutting the U.S.as an honest broker.

    *** CRITICAL: Joe ignored EVERY WARNING! For a looooong time, Joe plays dumb about Hunter's dealings in Ukraine. THE COUNTRY Joe was leading Foreign policy with. A very unstable, but burgeoning democracy ...

    - Burisma actively uses the Biden name to secure multiple energy deals, despite their WORLD-WIDE record for corruption. Biden's NAME and REPUTATION is used to free frozen assets in the UK.

    *** Taylor, personally had to intervene to scuttle one particular deal with USAID, through the State Dept.

    ** Joe was warned again.... This time directly by Taylor, but Biden made no effort to control the dealings of his grifter son. Yes! "Grifter" is a subjective adjective, but manifestly accurate. Not nuanced! But accurate.

    - THIS.... is known as GRAFT and CORRUPTION at the highest levels of government. Joe was WARNED on multiple occasions, but continued on... business as usual when it came to family. I won't get into the dealings of other family members. They are too complexed!

    - Graft that tarnished U.S. interests in the entire region.

    * Conventional wisdom is, " that Joe did nothing for HIS OWN PERSONAL GAIN." SORRY! This just does not wash! As though he had no interest in the welfare of his son? FINANCIALLY or otherwise? Come on now! Let's not be ridiculous?

    - Joe obviously was desperate to see Hunter land on his feet, after a VERY ROUGH patch!
    - Joe was also in mourning over Bo! I get that, & having lost a child myself, my heart breaks for him there! No doubt about it! Nothing worse!

    ANYWAY......

    I respect your opinion, but you simply can't have it both ways.

    What Joe did in ignoring every warning, putting U.S. interests in jeopardy, was inexcusable. Take away all the personal mitigating factors, it was flat corrupt. No excuses.

    * You can fall back on what you said about it all being "THE GOP YAMMERING ON ABOUT Hunter, but this was all WIDELY REPORTED by the NYT, WSJ, The New Yorker, Politico, WAPO, ABC NEWS, etc. long before we ever knew Joe would ever run again.

    Again.... we can both win ANY ARGUMENT! I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT!!!!

    Plenty of SHIT about Trump to gnaw on!!!! PLENTY!

    I personally think we should end the politics?
    Just my personal opinion.
    We're all bright people, but we have definitive and ultimately time tested biases that just won't budge.
    I LOVE THIS SHIT! I follow it closely, & read everything.
    I know both sides.
    Still, I will spin "my side," while the majority spins theirs.
    Mostly opinions.

    THERE IS NO WINNING! You will come back & Trump my point. Chances are, we're BOTH RIGHT, but we'll argue til it bleeds! Both sides are also DEAD WRONG!

    I've already seen & felt some pretty brutal & graphic ad hominem attacks. Either way, that shit should stop... but it won't. It always eventually goes ad hominem. It's so much easier to just call the other guy a Nazi, or say you'll "rape his mother..." A particular mensa debate club favorite?

    Anyway... I love the fight... I grew up in a VERY political family. It's all fun when everyone plays by the same rules.
    When you know somebody, and respect them, you're not going to make comments about their mother... You wont sophomorically question their intelligence....

    Good, clean, spirited but tempered debates NEVER happens in mixed company, especially on the internet.

    We should end the politics, or agree to terms of engagement?

    Peace
    Last edited by Sox75; 03-26-2020 at 02:03 AM.
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  4. #1219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sox75 View Post
    - Joe took over Ukraine Policy in 2014.
    - He was ostensibly & REPORTEDLY there to help FIGHT CORRUPTION.

    - 3 weeks later, Hunter takes the influence job with Burisma.
    - Burisma is THE MOST CORRUPT comp in Ukraine history

    - AGAIN.. Joe is there "to FIGHT CORRUPTION."
    - To show a would be ally a better way....

    - Hunter is paid an astounding $50 - $80 THOUSAND / MONTH, FROM THE COMPANY formed with stolen Ukraine money. Money from the people of Ukraine.
    - Ultimately well over $3 MILLION, & we still don't know exactly how much. Hunter got filthy rich by leveraging the influence of his fathers powerful position. There is no question about these facts.

    *** CRITICAL: Joe & staff are warned on multiple occasions by HIGH RANKING DIPLOMATS, that Hunter's shady dealings with Burisma is undercutting the U.S.as an honest broker.

    *** CRITICAL: Joe ignored EVERY WARNING! For a looooong time, Joe plays dumb about Hunter's dealings in Ukraine. THE COUNTRY Joe was leading Foreign policy with. A very unstable, but burgeoning democracy ...

    - Burisma actively uses the Biden name to secure multiple energy deals, despite their WORLD-WIDE record for corruption. Biden's NAME and REPUTATION is used to free frozen assets in the UK.

    *** Taylor, personally had to intervene to scuttle one particular deal with USAID, through the State Dept.

    ** Joe was warned again.... This time directly by Taylor, but Biden made no effort to control the dealings of his grifter son. Yes! "Grifter" is a subjective adjective, but manifestly accurate. Not nuanced! But accurate.

    - THIS.... is known as GRAFT and CORRUPTION at the highest levels of government. Joe was WARNED on multiple occasions, but continued on... business as usual when it came to family. I won't get into the dealings of other family members. They are too complexed!

    - Graft that tarnished U.S. interests in the entire region.

    * Conventional wisdom is, " that Joe did nothing for HIS OWN PERSONAL GAIN." SORRY! This just does not wash! As though he had no interest in the welfare of his son? FINANCIALLY or otherwise? Come on now! Let's not be ridiculous?

    - Joe obviously was desperate to see Hunter land on his feet, after a VERY ROUGH patch!
    - Joe was also in mourning over Bo! I get that, & having lost a child myself, my heart breaks for him there! No doubt about it! Nothing worse!

    ANYWAY......

    I respect your opinion, but you simply can't have it both ways.

    What Joe did in ignoring every warning, putting U.S. interests in jeopardy, was inexcusable. Take away all the personal mitigating factors, it was flat corrupt. No excuses.

    * You can fall back on what you said about it all being "THE GOP YAMMERING ON ABOUT Hunter, but this was all WIDELY REPORTED by the NYT, WSJ, The New Yorker, Politico, WAPO, ABC NEWS, etc. long before we ever knew Joe would ever run again.
    Joe was there to get rid of Shoken which he did. He is VP of the United States, not world crime fighter. As for Hunter, he is a big boy. He was 44 years old when he joined Burisma. I would not let my daddy wipe my ass at 44 years old and if I were Joe I would not be trying to wipe his ass at 44 years old. When are the Gen Xer's supposed to grow up anyway, NEVER? He has never made any bones about his last name being the most important asset of his career. I think he has a screw loose. But he never made any bones about his last name being his calling card.

    I don't think it made sense for Hunter to sit the Burisma board myself. But it was his decision and he made it. If the US Gov has a beef with Hunter then stop pussyfooting around with bogus congressional hearings and do whatever they are going to do. Until then its a smear campaign against his father and nothing more.

  5. #1220
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    Quote Originally Posted by jung View Post
    IMO the three worst Presidents of the modern era, each one worse than the last are Bush 43, Obama and Trump, their failings while different in each case were and are as plain as the nose on your face. You have to go back to Jimmy Carter to get the 4th worst President of the modern era. Three is a row as bad as these three characters will make you begin to lose faith in our political system and in the Electorate itself. We have simply lost our understanding of the job of Chief Executive. Most of us barely know how our own government functions and most of us couldn't care less if we tried.
    I don't see any mention of "good" Presidents of the modern era. Have there been any?
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  6. #1221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    I don't see any mention of "good" Presidents of the modern era. Have there been any?
    Carter was good after he left the presidency. Maybe the best former President of the modern era?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Remy View Post
    “Now I’m not sure why it was necessary, but watch ... I can’t circle because I don’t have my telestrator but HERE COMES THE PIZZA, see?”

  7. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Carter was good after he left the presidency. Maybe the best former President of the modern era?
    So that's one good ex-President. A start, I guess.
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    As one who hated both of tthem with a passion, I'd put Johnson there (for his domestic policies), and (UGH!) Nixon for a few of his internattional ones. Clinton for his political skills. JFK simply for his charisma? (Obama too soon to tell). At the otther end? (Well, I'd start with a guy who can't read even a briefing memo, nor speak ttwo sentences without contradicting himself, but leaving that aside), Reagan (for putting a happy face on greed and police thuggery), Carter for being ineffective, Bush II (Bush I for being a decent guy with political experience, who, like Carter, was ineffective--thus mediocre).

  9. #1224
    TalkSox Godhead mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    So that's one good ex-President. A start, I guess.
    I think the issue is that every President has a complicated history of both good and bad decisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Remy View Post
    “Now I’m not sure why it was necessary, but watch ... I can’t circle because I don’t have my telestrator but HERE COMES THE PIZZA, see?”

  10. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    So that's one good ex-President. A start, I guess.
    Clinton has the good fortune to be president as an entire new method of business and economic development and prosperity occurred, and he managed to embrace it without screwing it up. So there is that...

  11. #1226
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    Quote Originally Posted by jad View Post
    As one who hated both of tthem with a passion, I'd put Johnson there (for his domestic policies), and (UGH!) Nixon for a few of his internattional ones. Clinton for his political skills. JFK simply for his charisma? (Obama too soon to tell). At the otther end? (Well, I'd start with a guy who can't read even a briefing memo, nor speak ttwo sentences without contradicting himself, but leaving that aside), Reagan (for putting a happy face on greed and police thuggery), Carter for being ineffective, Bush II (Bush I for being a decent guy with political experience, who, like Carter, was ineffective--thus mediocre).
    To be fair to Carter, he tried to get America to embrace fuel conservation and environmental issues that become more prevalent 20 years later. But his legacy is always limited to Iranian hostages, failed attempts to embrace the metric system, and being attacked by an giant swimming rabbit...

  12. #1227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    I don't see any mention of "good" Presidents of the modern era. Have there been any?
    There is no rating for good to bad for Presidents. No perfect person takes the office. They are all flawed human beings as are all of us. Lincoln was not a perfect person. Washington is probably as close as you get on that score and he wasn't perfect either. Rating them best to worst is about as good as you get. The job of President changed considerably from FDR forward which is why I make my modern era cut at FDR.

    Rankings best to worst for Presidents in the Modern Era IMO:
    - FDR
    - Kennedy
    - Ike
    - Truman
    - Reagan
    - LBJ
    - Clinton
    - Bush 41
    - Ford
    - Nixon
    - Carter
    - Bush 43
    - Obama
    - Trump

    If I went back to WW1 Wilson would rank in the upper half, Taft would be somewhere in the middle with Hoover and Harding well down the list. TR was a decent President and would rank at least as high as Wilson if I was going deeper into the full list or doing a full list of Presidents.

    Trump is vying now for worst President of all time with Harding, Hoover, Tyler, Pierce, Andrew Johnson, and James Buchanan. Before FDR you get some Presidents that are just inconsequential as opposed to fucked in the head. There is no such thing as an inconsequential President from FDR forward. Trump, Andrew Johnson and Buchanan are severely fucked in the head Presidents each with multiple pathologies ruling their personas and their Presidencies. Biggest idiot or biggest dolt of the bunch, probably Hoover.....ALL TIME! Second to him, probably Tyler. They might never be surpassed for the honor of most noted dolts making it to the WH.
    Last edited by jung; 03-26-2020 at 08:15 AM.

  13. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Clinton has the good fortune to be president as an entire new method of business and economic development and prosperity occurred, and he managed to embrace it without screwing it up. So there is that...
    If you bring in the 'character' stuff, Clinton was and is a slimeball.
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  14. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    If you bring in the 'character' stuff, Clinton was and is a slimeball.
    Monica clearly didn't think his balls were slimy...
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    Quote Originally Posted by a700hitter View Post
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  15. #1230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Monica clearly didn't think his balls were slimy...
    That girl got slimed for life by him.
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