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Thread: 2020-2021 Offseason Thread

  1. #1411
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    According to badeballtradevalues.com, these are the SP'ers with the worst negative value:

    (Some are not on the trading block. Some are very good pitchers who are owed a lot of money.)

    -112 Strasburg
    -59 Cole
    -50 Bumgarner
    -45 Corbin
    -33 Verlander
    -28 Mikolas
    -21 Cueto
    -17 Greinke
    -18 Sale
    -12 Cobb
    -11 Eovaldi
    -11 Price
    -10 Roark
    -9 Duffy
    -8 Lyles & Keuchel
    -4 Miley
    -3 Kikuchi, Gibson & Ryu

    RH RP'er
    -15 Jansen
    -13 Familia
    -11 Kimbrell & Kelly
    -6 Martinez
    -5 Ottavino & Harris

    LH RP'er
    -9 Miller & Britton
    -8 Smith
    -4 Chapman & Pomeranz



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  2. #1412
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    A lot of present and past Red Sox on that list.
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  3. #1413
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    That one seems rather extreme, to me, too.

    If Bloom has some positive, inside info on Bumgarner we don't know about, it's way too risky and costly.
    Depends on what prospect capital Arizona would be willing to add to make up that -50 on Bum's contract.
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  4. #1414
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    This trade was accepted:

    Chavis, Chatham, Groome & Bello

    to KC for

    Duffy (1 yr at $15.5M but $13M on tax), Barlow (4 yrs of control), Lee (OF prospect) and Gallagher (4 yrs back up catcher- maybe trade Vaz, later?)

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  5. #1415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Farm decimator!
    My thoughts are it's a fair trade, but I don't think Tampa goes for it, and really the Sox should be hesitant, too.

    With Tampa
    1) They might not like Downs so much considering they have two very young middle infielders in MLB (Lowe and Adames) and another as the #1 overall prospect (Franco) plus a fourth (Vidal Brujan) similarly ranked to Downs.
    2) Trading stars for prospects within the division is a smart move when you're a bad team and you're basically trading the best of a weak present day for the future of a division rival. In theory, they get worse as your team gets better. But Tampa is the reigning AL pennant winner, and NOT a bad team.
    3) It does not even address their completely absent catching position.

    With Boston, it is a farm killer. And because of that, the primary goal should be to get a bad contract like Kiermaier in in order to reduce the load of dirt cheap players the team needs.

    I think the Sox need to be in talks with Pittsburgh for Taillon. And if they have to take back Polanco in order to reduce the asking price, I can support that, too...

  6. #1416
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    My thoughts are it's a fair trade, but I don't think Tampa goes for it, and really the Sox should be hesitant, too.

    With Tampa
    1) They might not like Downs so much considering they have two very young middle infielders in MLB (Lowe and Adames) and another as the #1 overall prospect (Franco) plus a fourth (Vidal Brujan) similarly ranked to Downs.
    2) Trading stars for prospects within the division is a smart move when you're a bad team and you're basically trading the best of a weak present day for the future of a division rival. In theory, they get worse as your team gets better. But Tampa is the reigning AL pennant winner, and NOT a bad team.
    3) It does not even address their completely absent catching position.

    With Boston, it is a farm killer. And because of that, the primary goal should be to get a bad contract like Kiermaier in in order to reduce the load of dirt cheap players the team needs.

    I think the Sox need to be in talks with Pittsburgh for Taillon. And if they have to take back Polanco in order to reduce the asking price, I can support that, too...
    I like Kiermaier much better than Polanco, though. Since TB might be looking at their window as being open now, adding Vaz while cutting salary has to interest them. Just not for Snell.

    They may not be too worried about helping the Sox become a top contender during their window period. They can replace Kiermaier from within their own system, seemlessly.

    I'm thinking Kiermaier, Chirinos & catching prospect Hernandez for Vaz.

    I like Taillon as a target, too, and maybe we can do both deals, although adding Polanco & Kiermayer pretty much necessitates trading Beni or using an expensive platoon somewhere.

    Then, where do we get a catcher?
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  7. #1417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    I don't like the idea of trading 3 of our best prospects for a guy who has only one season with an fWAR higher than 2.7.
    So you wouldn’t trade them for Jack Flaherty?

  8. #1418
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    I like Kiermaier much better than Polanco, though. Since TB might be looking at their window as being open now, adding Vaz while cutting salary has to interest them. Just not for Snell.

    They may not be too worried about helping the Sox become a top contender during their window period. They can replace Kiermaier from within their own system, seemlessly.

    I'm thinking Kiermaier, Chirinos & catching prospect Hernandez for Vaz.

    I like Taillon as a target, too, and maybe we can do both deals, although adding Polanco & Kiermayer pretty much necessitates trading Beni or using an expensive platoon somewhere.

    Then, where do we get a catcher?
    If the Sox are taking an unwanted contract back, Polanco is my second choice behind Ender Inciarte. Polanco is coming off a HORRIBLE season last year, but he was among the MLB leaders in one positive category - exit velocity. His main problem was making contact. Anyone with top tier exit velocity and massive strikeout problems makes me first think - time to update that contact lens prescription!

  9. #1419
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    So you wouldn’t trade them for Jack Flaherty?
    As you know, Flaherty has a significantly higher trade value than Snell, for various reasons.

    I might consider that one.

    But I don't like the Snell trade at all. I just don't think he's good enough to justify it.
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  10. #1420
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Archie Bradley was non-tendered.
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  11. #1421
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Ricardo Gibbon (Venezuelan Yankee beat writer?) suggests Kluber is close to signing with Yankees.
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  12. #1422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    As you know, Flaherty has a significantly higher trade value than Snell, for various reasons.

    I might consider that one.

    But I don't like the Snell trade at all. I just don't think he's good enough to justify it.
    But Flahery also only has one season above 2.3 fWAR. And he has only pitched one less season than Snell. (His higher trade value is strongly influenced to his lower salary.)

    Snell does only have one season above 2.7 fWAR, but he has also only pitched 157 IP in two seasons since his breakout year. In 2019, he managed to be worth 2.7 fWAR in 107 innings! It is not the talent that is the issue with Snell...

  13. #1423
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    But Flahery also only has one season above 2.3 fWAR. And he has only pitched one less season than Snell. (His higher trade value is strongly influenced to his lower salary.)

    Snell does only have one season above 2.7 fWAR, but he has also only pitched 157 IP in two seasons since his breakout year. In 2019, he managed to be worth 2.7 fWAR in 107 innings! It is not the talent that is the issue with Snell...
    Yeah, agreed.
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  14. #1424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Yeah, agreed.
    Now for me, I just don't think the Sox have the deep farm and the players Tampa needs. Jeter Downs is an excellent trade bait and probably a guy the Sox could consider moving for a pitcher, but it won't be Snell (even if they take Kiermaier's contract). Tampa is just too flush with middle infield talent. They might not mind taking another MI but I think they would prefer a catcher, and that tells me the Dodgers (Keibert Ruiz) and the Reds (Tyler Stephenson) are both able to put together more attractive packages to acquire Snell.

    I think the Sox need to target Jameson Taillon and sign two from Brad Hand, Hansel Robles and Archie Bradley. (It is possible that only one of them takes an offer from the Sox regardless of money as only one of them can close and all three might have the closer role as a priority. As it is their choice, I can't say that they will all be interested. But so far, this is just mesage board fodder)

    Taillon's trade value is actually reasonable on BTV, but it is tough to gauge what player from the Sox they might want. While that site does give Downs more trade value than Taillon, it is not an unreasonable amount for a swap. And as Cherington is a notorious prospect hoarder, he might even be on board with it. Ideally, I would like to see him acquired for someone else, but not sure what Pitt needs beyond players who make little to no money. The Sox most expendable dirt cheap player is Chavis, but even with his BTV trade value actually looking reasonable at 7.5, I just don't see why any team might be interested in him.

    Also, the Sox can probably fill the CF void with Ender Inciarte and get him for next to nothing. With the Braves being in the unenviable position of having Inciarte as their highest paid outfielder and not even starting, he should be extremely available from Atlanta.

    That just leaves 2B (maybe?) and a LHH bench bat. And the LHH bench bat has always looked like former Bloom acquisition Brad Miller would be the perfect fit for the Sox....

  15. #1425
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    From OTM, non-tendered players that the Sox may have interest in. I've highlighted the guys I'd think about targeting (though any of the relief options could fit here).

    Infield
    Hanser Alberto (BAL) would fill the hole at second base. The 28-year-old (he’ll be 28 for the entire 2021 season) wouldn’t be a dynamic signing and his ceiling is limited due to his lack of power and patience, but the high-contact hitter has been a roughly two-win player for each of the last two seasons. (That’s extrapolating 2020 over a full season.)
    Travis Shaw (TOR) would provide depth at first base. A former fan favorite in Boston, this would make a ton of sense. Shaw is coming off a pair of below-average seasons at the plate so he likely won’t be commanding an every day role on the open market. The Red Sox could use some left-handed insurance behind Bobby Dalbec, though, and Shaw fits that mold.
    Daniel Robertson (TB) would fill the hole at second base. There’s the obvious Bloom connection here with Robertson being a former Ray, and it was only a couple years ago that he had a 128 wRC+. That mark was down to 71 in 2019, though, before rebounding to 119 in only 24 plate appearances this past summer. Robertson will turn 27 shortly before Opening Day.
    Outfield
    David Dahl (COL) may have been the most surprising non-tender. The former top prospect is coming off a brutal season and has had trouble staying healthy his entire career, but he’s also been an All-Star and will be 27 next year. The Red Sox may be hesitant to sign another lefty, but the upside could be worth it here, particularly for a team building up like Boston.
    Kyle Schwarber (CHC) was once one of the most intriguing hitting prospects in the game. Defense is an issue, but the power is very real and this is a chance to buy relatively low on that. That said, the idea of a defense with Schwarber in left and Andrew Benintendi in center shakes me to my core.
    Eddie Rosario (MIN) was available to all teams on waivers and went unclaimed. He’s arguably the best player regardless of position on this entire list and has received MVP votes in each of the last two seasons. The biggest issue for Boston here may be that he is another lefty.
    Adam Duvall (ATL) fills the right-handed potential need here. Duvall has legitimate power and has been on a 46-homer-per-600-plate-appearances pace the last couple years. That has come in a platoon role, though. Still, depending on how much they’re willing to spend this year having him in a platoon with Benintendi isn’t the craziest idea in the world if there is roster space to make that arrangement work.
    Albert Almora (CHC) would probably fit into that platoon situation in some way, shape or form. He’s not a starting player but he’s a high-contact right-handed bat who can play center field.
    Nomar Mazara (CHW) is a former top prospect who some people (read: me) have been betting on in fantasy for what seems like decades at this point. He’ll still only be 26 next season so it’s not hard to continue buying in, but he’s had five seasons in the majors and he’s never even been average at the plate by wRC+ and had a mark of 68 last season. He’s also another lefty.
    Delino DeShields (CLE) brings a ton of speed and can cover a ton of ground in center field, but his offense has never really been that of an everyday player. This would be an underwhelming way to fill the hole in the outfield, to say the least.
    Tyler Naquin (CLE) is similar to DeShields in that he is a solid defensive player but is much better utilized as a bench player than someone to play close to every day.
    Starting Pitchers
    Carlos Rodón (CHW) was the third overall pick back in 2014 and still had a ton of promise as recently as 2017. However, he’s never been able to take that next step and has been backtracking in terms of performance the last couple of years. He would be a decent enough reclamation project, but certainly not a top-tier target.
    José Ureña (MIA) was, like Rosario above, recently available on waivers. He was the ace of the Marlins staff a couple years ago when they were at the deepest valley of their most recent rebuild, but like Rodón is a nice depth add rather than a top-tier target.
    Tyler Anderson (SF) doesn’t have a ton of name recognition nor does he have big-time recent performance. That said, he’s been roughly league-average by park-adjusted ERA in four of his five major-league seasons and could be a solid plug-and-play back-end starter.
    Relief Pitchers
    Archie Bradley (CIN) should command a good amount of interest on the open market. He emerged as a true late-inning reliever almost as soon as he converted to relief with the Diamondbacks and while he’s not on the level of the top-tier relievers this year he’s not all that far off.
    Matt Wisler (MIN) is probably the name that will get the most surprising amount of buzz for the next day or two. He came out of nowhere this past year to post a dominant 1.07 ERA with a bunch of strikeouts. I’m not sure how much I buy in, but it’s at least worth a closer look.
    John Brebbia (STL) is the kind of good-not-great reliever that can be underated in the free agent market. He did miss all of 2020 after undergoing Tommy John surgery, so that throws a bit of a wrench in things, but before that he was roughly 20 percent better than league-average by both results and peripherals for two straight years.
    Keynan Middleton (LAA) made his debut in 2017 and became the Angels closer by the end of that year. He started 2018 in that role as well, but then suffered an injury that eventually required Tommy John. He’s only pitched 35 1⁄3 innings over the last three seasons combined, but the upside is still there and he’s entering his age-27 season.
    Hansel Robles (LAA) is another former Angels closer, serving in that role in 2019. He’d been mostly solid for his career before this past summer, but his command tanked in 2020 and he ended the year with an ERA over 10.00.
    Chasen Shreve (NYM) may be a familiar name from his days with the Yankees, but he emerged as a solid multi-inning option for the other New York team last year. This wouldn’t be the new closer, but he could be a nice low-key addition.
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