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Thread: Schilling & HOF

  1. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post

    Apple watches and tech to steal signs are specifically banned by the rules. No Gray area to me…
    I'm not against the rules, just the gray areas between the ears of MLB officials who approved TV monitors in clubhouses and iPads in dugouts to watch games -- with the condition that all young men trying to become set for life agree not to notice the fingers of catchers before every single pitch.

  2. #392
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    I know a lot of people promote the sanctity of records, etc. To me, this is a silly argument. The game has changed so much since the days of Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth that isolating steroids as the only difference involves burying oneself shoulder-deep in denial.
    The regular season home run record was a special one.

    Ruth set the original record of 60 in 1927.
    Maris raised it to 61 in 1961 under dramatic circumstances.
    Without PEDs the record would in all likelihood still be 61.
    Which would mean that over a 94-year stretch the record has still only been increased by 1.
    That's what you call holding up over time.

    And there are other baseball records that seem untouchable.
    DiMaggio's 56 game streak.
    No .400 hitters since Williams hit .406.
    No 30 game winners since McLain in 1968.
    Ryan's strikeout records.
    Ryan's 7 no-hitters.
    Last edited by Bellhorn04; 11-26-2021 at 03:26 PM.
    Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1

    The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    PEDs are perceived as evil for several reasons.

    1) They can lead to dramatic changes in physical appearance, not only huge increases in muscle mass, but even scarier stuff like increased head size.
    2) They can produce extremely adverse psychological effects-"roid rage" being the most familiar.
    3) They can kill. Lyle Alzado.
    Some PEDs do that. Many of them are also illegal. Certainly anything illegal to possess in the USA should also be illegal in MLB.

    But HGH does none of those things and is still against the rules…

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    The regular season home run record was a special one.

    Ruth set the original record of 60 in 1927.
    Maris raised it to 61 in 1961 under dramatic circumstances.
    Without PEDs the record would in all likelihood still be 61.
    Which would mean that over a 94-year stretch the record has still only been increased by 1.
    That's what you call holding up over time.

    And there are other baseball records that seem untouchable.
    DiMaggio's 56 game streak.
    No .400 hitters since Williams hit .406.
    No 30 game winners since McLain in 1968.
    Ryan's strikeout records.
    Ryan's 7 no-hitters.
    Or Cy Young’s 511 wins.

    Of course, the Ted Williams hitting .400 is a mere benchmark. Players have been remarkably close, but it’s not the record. In fact, it’s one instance where evolution of the game is a factor at this point. Williams, after all, faced a few pitchers three times in a game. As did DiMaggio.

    McLain’s accomlishment also is protected by evolution - he was not part of a 5 man rotation making 32 starts each.
    Last edited by notin; 11-26-2021 at 03:42 PM.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    The regular season home run record was a special one.

    Ruth set the original record of 60 in 1927.
    Maris raised it to 61 in 1961 under dramatic circumstances.
    Without PEDs the record would in all likelihood still be 61.
    Which would mean that over a 94-year stretch the record has still only been increased by 1.
    That's what you call holding up over time.
    I call it ignoring history.

    Until 1931, any ball bouncing over the fence was counted as a home run. Also the “last seen fair” rule was in place, meaning balls that traveled into the stands but then went foul could be called foul balls. (Like ground rule doubles, foul poles also were not part of the game until 1931.)

    The rules each went by were so different, that these records are only different by one feels more like coincidence…

  6. #396
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    I call it ignoring history.

    Until 1931, any ball bouncing over the fence was counted as a home run. Also the “last seen fair” rule was in place, meaning balls that traveled into the stands but then went foul could be called foul balls. (Like ground rule doubles, foul poles also were not part of the game until 1931.)

    The rules each went by were so different, that these records are only different by one feels more like coincidence…
    OK, so throw out Ruth's 60.

    Maris's record would still be 60 years old.
    Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1

    The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.

  7. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    OK, so throw out Ruth's 60.

    Maris's record would still be 60 years old.
    Things are never fair. The short porch in the old Yankee Stadium was made for a guy like Maris. It's not cheating , but it does take something away from his accomplishment. And Ruth's , for that matter.
    Old school is good school.

  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgalehouse View Post
    Things are never fair. The short porch in the old Yankee Stadium was made for a guy like Maris. It's not cheating , but it does take something away from his accomplishment. And Ruth's , for that matter.

    Another valid point.

    A player like Ted Williams might have hit 70 as a Yankee. And might have hit 715 as a Red Sox player who didn’t go to war.

    That’s all hypothetical, of course. But the point about the lack of defined dimensions on the playing surface certainly has an effect. Can you imagine if the 3 point line in the Chase Center was 23’9”, but in the Boston Garden and Milwaukee it was only 20’. Would people debate Ray Allen vs Steph Curry as a better 3 point shooter?

  9. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Another valid point.

    A player like Ted Williams might have hit 70 as a Yankee. And might have hit 715 as a Red Sox player who didn’t go to war.

    That’s all hypothetical, of course. But the point about the lack of defined dimensions on the playing surface certainly has an effect. Can you imagine if the 3 point line in the Chase Center was 23’9”, but in the Boston Garden and Milwaukee it was only 20’. Would people debate Ray Allen vs Steph Curry as a better 3 point shooter?
    Baseball may be the only major sport that doesn't have a standard playing field. Unless you want to include golf courses.
    Old school is good school.

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgalehouse View Post
    Baseball may be the only major sport that doesn't have a standard playing field. Unless you want to include golf courses.
    I believe the rule book actually does have defined dimensions for a standard playing field. But much like a pitch clock, they’re ignored by one and all.

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgalehouse View Post
    Things are never fair. The short porch in the old Yankee Stadium was made for a guy like Maris. It's not cheating , but it does take something away from his accomplishment.
    Except Maris hit 31 on the road and 30 at the Stadium that year, which indicates his achievement was 100% bona fide.
    Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1

    The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.

  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    Except Maris hit 31 on the road and 30 at the Stadium that year, which indicates his achievement was 100% bona fide.
    If Roger Maris, who played 12 seasons and hit 275 career home runs, hit 61 home runs in a single season at any point in recent years, he’d be accused of cheating. I mean, 60 home runs from a guy who never otherwise hit 40?

  13. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    If Roger Maris, who played 12 seasons and hit 275 career home runs, hit 61 home runs in a single season at any point in recent years, he’d be accused of cheating. I mean, 60 home runs from a guy who never otherwise hit 40?
    I don't disagree.

    However, it should be noted that Maris also had an outstanding season in 1960, with a .952 OPS, 160 OPS+ (vs. 167 in 1961), and 39 HR in 136 games. He won the MVP award in both 1960 and 1961.
    Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1

    The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    I don't disagree.

    However, it should be noted that Maris also had an outstanding season in 1960, with a .952 OPS, 160 OPS+ (vs. 167 in 1961), and 39 HR in 136 games. He won the MVP award in both 1960 and 1961.
    Yes he is on the very short list day of players with 2 MVP awards who are not in the Hall of Fame, along with Dale Murphy and Juan Gonzalez. (Eligible players only.)

    But today would he be under the same microscope as Bonds and McGwire? Hell, why don’t we even acknowledge that Maris STILL HOLDS the American League single season record??

  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Yes he is on the very short list day of players with 2 MVP awards who are not in the Hall of Fame, along with Dale Murphy and Juan Gonzalez. (Eligible players only.)

    But today would he be under the same microscope as Bonds and McGwire? Hell, why don’t we even acknowledge that Maris STILL HOLDS the American League single season record??
    The only reason Bonds and McGwire are under a microscope is that we know they used PEDs.

    Good point about Maris still holding the AL record, but realistically, with these iconic records we generally only care about what the major league record is.
    Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1

    The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.

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