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Thread: 2021 Spring Training Discussion

  1. #16
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Where did I say make concessions?

    I said make a counter offer. If MLB says no, then wait to the next negotiations. The world has changed, bigly.

    They better be ready for some big whining shows put on by the owners.
    They have NO reason to counter. Read the twitter thread I posted above.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Where did I say make concessions?

    I said make a counter offer. If MLB says no, then wait to the next negotiations. The world has changed, bigly.

    They better be ready for some big whining shows put on by the owners.
    Once they counteroffer, they’ve agreed to renegotiate. They do not want to renegotiate.

    You don’t maintain the status quo by making counteroffers...

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Once they counteroffer, they’ve agreed to renegotiate. They do not want to renegotiate.

    You don’t maintain the status quo by making counteroffers...
    Agreeing to negotiate some new terms does not mean the current deal is null and void. If no agreement is reached, things remain status quo.

    The problem is, status quo in a pandemic is nearly impossible. Some changes are real- like 2020. Do the players want management to decide everything on their own and then try to litigate it after the fact?

    I'm just saying the union should be proactive and not just let the owners decide on a lot of issues.

    If they see they are getting nowhere, then stop "negotiating" until next year.

    There are clearly some things the owners cannot do unilaterally, but some things could be traded off that help both sides and the game of baseball in trying times.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Agreeing to negotiate some new terms does not mean the current deal is null and void. If no agreement is reached, things remain status quo.

    The problem is, status quo in a pandemic is nearly impossible. Some changes are real- like 2020. Do the players want management to decide everything on their own and then try to litigate it after the fact?

    I'm just saying the union should be proactive and not just let the owners decide on a lot of issues.

    If they see they are getting nowhere, then stop "negotiating" until next year.

    There are clearly some things the owners cannot do unilaterally, but some things could be traded off that help both sides and the game of baseball in trying times.
    If the MLBPA wats the current deal in place, counteroffers make no sense for them. Are they being stubborn? Maybe. But right now it appears as though status quo is their stance, and they are sticking to it. And as a result, they will not be making counteroffers...

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    If the MLBPA wats the current deal in place, counteroffers make no sense for them. Are they being stubborn? Maybe. But right now it appears as though status quo is their stance, and they are sticking to it. And as a result, they will not be making counteroffers...
    They did seem to signal the specific things they did not like about the owner's proposal. To me, that shows they may be okay with some of what was put on the table.

    I'm not saying they will open it all up, but if indeed there were only a couple things they did not like- maybe it was more- then maybe some changes could be made that are needed to address this unique situation we are all in.

    I would not bet on it happening, but the players will end up losing again, this season- not that the wonder made out last year.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    Agreeing to negotiate some new terms does not mean the current deal is null and void. If no agreement is reached, things remain status quo.

    The problem is, status quo in a pandemic is nearly impossible. Some changes are real- like 2020. Do the players want management to decide everything on their own and then try to litigate it after the fact?

    I'm just saying the union should be proactive and not just let the owners decide on a lot of issues.

    If they see they are getting nowhere, then stop "negotiating" until next year.

    There are clearly some things the owners cannot do unilaterally, but some things could be traded off that help both sides and the game of baseball in trying times.
    The owners can't "just decide" on a lot of issues. Those issues are already addressed in the CBA. The owners can't just go against the CBA like that.

    Also, LOL at the "trying times." These owners are rolling in the dough. They aren't hurting at all right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    They did seem to signal the specific things they did not like about the owner's proposal. To me, that shows they may be okay with some of what was put on the table.

    I'm not saying they will open it all up, but if indeed there were only a couple things they did not like- maybe it was more- then maybe some changes could be made that are needed to address this unique situation we are all in.

    I would not bet on it happening, but the players will end up losing again, this season- not that the wonder made out last year.
    What's the point on opening anything up? The players lost a ton of money last season that they'll never get back. It'd be dumb to give anything else to the owners right now.

    Why negotiate universal DH for extra unpaid games? It makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    If the MLBPA wats the current deal in place, counteroffers make no sense for them. Are they being stubborn? Maybe. But right now it appears as though status quo is their stance, and they are sticking to it. And as a result, they will not be making counteroffers...
    This is why most players are only getting one-year deals; owners know there might not be a next season (not to mention a variant, mutated 2021). It also further explains why the Sox FO "may not be all-in".

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    This is why most players are only getting one-year deals; owners know there might not be a next season (not to mention a variant, mutated 2021). It also further explains why the Sox FO "may not be all-in".
    That'd be a shame if next season was shortened or didn't happen, since it'd be the first season where you could possibly fill the stands to capacity again. Players got screwed last time, maybe they'll decide to sit out for a few months if the owners try to lowball them? I don't have much faith in Rob Manfred or Tony Clark at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    What's the point on opening anything up? The players lost a ton of money last season that they'll never get back. It'd be dumb to give anything else to the owners right now.

    Why negotiate universal DH for extra unpaid games? It makes no sense.
    You are misunderstanding my point. The owners can decide to just shut down the season- like 2020. (I am not on the owners side, at all. Never have been.)

    The union should try to get whatever they can. Of course, I am not advocating they negotiate loses, but they are going to "lose" again in 2021, so why not try to get something good?

    If they can't, nothing is lost that they weren't going to lose anyway.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    You are misunderstanding my point. The owners can decide to just shut down the season- like 2020. (I am not on the owners side, at all. Never have been.)

    The union should try to get whatever they can. Of course, I am not advocating they negotiate loses, but they are going to "lose" again in 2021, so why not try to get something good?

    If they can't, nothing is lost that they weren't going to lose anyway.
    So the owners are going to lock out the players? You think that will be good for the next CBA?

    Why should the union ever start off with "let's give something back that is already in our contract?"
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    So the owners are going to lock out the players? You think that will be good for the next CBA?

    Why should the union ever start off with "let's give something back that is already in our contract?"
    They could shorten the season, again. No, I'm not talking lock out, but I suppose that could happen.

    Did the players gain anything in 2020? Did they lose anything? Did they have much say in what was lost in 2020?

    Can they learn from 2020 and try to mitigate further losses? Maybe not. How can it hurt to try?
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    The owners can't "just decide" on a lot of issues. Those issues are already addressed in the CBA. The owners can't just go against the CBA like that.

    Also, LOL at the "trying times." These owners are rolling in the dough. They aren't hurting at all right now.
    There is something to be said for the financial situation of these owners.

    John Henry has a net worth of $2.6 billion (per Forbes). While he (and other owners) do not use their own cash, Henry clearly has shown he has no issues keeping the Sox at or near the top of the MLB payroll hierarchy. The Greater Boston Area is the 10th largest metropolitan area in the US per the 2010 census, which certainly helps.

    Oakland A's majority owner John Fisher has a net worth of $2.8 billion (per Forbes). The A's play in the 12 largest metropolitan area. Now they do share it with the Giants, which is a big deal. But does this impact them to the point where they have to operate among the lowest payrolls in MLB? I can see the issue here somewhat, as it would be like if Boston had two MLB franchises. Can Boston support two MLB teams? It only seems to work in the 3 largest markets (NY, LA, Chicago). If Philadelphia-DC-Baltimore was considered one metropolitan area and not 3 separate ones, it would be the second largest market in the USA, ahead of LA and behind only New York. (Again, all data per the 2010 census.)

    Miami Marlins majority owner Bruce Sherman does "only" have a net worth of $500 million (per Forbes), but the Marlins do play in the 7th largest market in the USA per the 2010 census. But a lot of other money does come from his rather wealthy partnership group that includes Derek Jeter (Forbes net worth - $200 million) and Michael Jordan (Forbes net worth - $1.6 billion). So why do the Marlins frequently cry poverty? They have the population and the money upfront to put a team together. On the surface, this team appears to have the worst excuses for crying poverty and small market. It's not a small market.

    Pittsburgh Pirates majority owner Robert Nutting has a net worth of $1.6 billion per Forbes, which dstill makes him one of the 10 richest owners in MLB. Now they do play in the 27th largest market in the USA, which certainly has an impact. But at what point is he just refusing to invest in his team to put a better product on the field and take advantage of what is still a rather large and robust market? I get it is easier to support NFL teams (with a lot fewer home games) and NHL teams (significantly lower budgets).

    Tampa Rays owner Stuart Sternberg has a Forbes net worth of $800 million, and the Tampa market ranks 18th largest in the USA. Wht I think kills this team is 1) the inconvenient stadium and 2) the Tampa market is flooded with retirees mostly from other states who brought with them their own team allegiances. It's a large market, but I am not sure how accessible it is to the Rays, who really need to relocate at some point. If there is a market that could support a second team, the Dallas-Forth Worth-Arlington market is probably the best option. Personally, I think New York City could support a third team, like they did for a long time. Bring back the Brooklyn Superbas!!

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    They could shorten the season, again. No, I'm not talking lock out, but I suppose that could happen.

    Did the players gain anything in 2020? Did they lose anything? Did they have much say in what was lost in 2020?

    Can they learn from 2020 and try to mitigate further losses? Maybe not. How can it hurt to try?
    It would be dumb for the owners to lock out the players this year. Last year, the season was shortened because many cities were outlawing gatherings of 10+ people. That hasn't been the case since MLB started up last July. If it wasn't for local government, the season may have gone ahead. Now, there are no such restrictions. NHL and NBA are both doing indoors games. There's no reason for the MLB (a sport played outside and is fairly socially distant) to play fewer games this year.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  15. #30
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    If Tampa relocated, it'd probably be to Nashville or some other new market rather than an existing market. I think Tampa is more likely to build a new stadium than move. The governor here loves his sports and will find a way to weasel tax payers into paying for a new stadium.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

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