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Thread: Rock Bottom, 2021 AL East

  1. #31
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    I agree with those who can't imagine the Sox switching Devers and Dalbec during the season. Devers is a third baseman, period. He's capable of being solid, and sometimes spectacular. Can we agree his defensive lapses aren't physical, since he has elite reflexes and a strong arm? He just needs maturity, and probably continued guidance from coaches and teammates. If he needs a break, the versatile vets will spell him.

    If Rafie is borderline brutal all season, then the Sox may choose to make changes next offseason... just like the Yankees will when they finally admit they can't win with Torres at shortstop (he's no Jeter -- a mostly solid, sometimes overrated defender, with a knack for making clutch plays; Torres just isn't good).
    Devers always starts off slow defensively and offensively. Just need to get through April and he'll turn it around.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxbialystock View Post
    I agree with Notin and am fine with Devers, errors and all, and Bogaerts, with his limited range, on the left side of the infield. As we have just learned, the backup DH should be Vazquez with JD Martinez moving to LF.

    I am more and more convinced no one on talksox has ever heard or read the expression, "good field, no hit," which is shorthand for guys who usually don't get to the majors and never to the HOF, which is reserved for hitters and pitchers. Are there some great fielders in the HOF? Absolutely. But their bats got them in.

    Is Willie Mays my favorite HOF'er? He sure is--precisely because he was a bona fide five tool player whose most famous play was grabbing Wertz's 1954 World Series long drive deep into the vast expanse of the Polo Grounds centerfield. Seeing a great defensive play is like reading a sonnet by Keats or Shakespeare, but only occasionally is it a game-winner.
    I get your point, and the Hall has probably ignored some great defensive players with weak bats. But sometimes - probably more political than anything else - a player carried by his defensive skillset does get in.

    For example, if I asked you which of these three players is NOT a Hall of Famer:

    Player A: Played 23 seasons and had a career OPS+ of 105
    Player B: Played 19 seasons with a career OPS+ of 87
    Player C: Played 15 years with a career OPS+ of 144

    You'd look at those number right away and say "Lance Berkman is the one not in the Hall of Fame, and he probably shouldn't be. And both Brooks Robinson and Ozzie Smith deserve it more because their defense made them both better overall players despite them both possessing offensive skills that were average or below average."

    Which, of course, is the correct answer. (And also I would be impressed with how quick you got it.)

    But when you also point out that several elite defensive players such as Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen and Omar Vizquel also failed to get into the Hall this year, and for all of them it was their 4th chance, while better hitters who couldn't field like Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, and Jim Thome were all elected over them, it does add a lot of merit to your point.

    Conclusion: If you are a great fielder who struggles at the plate, your chances are helped substantially if you can do back flips on the field...

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    I get your point, and the Hall has probably ignored some great defensive players with weak bats. But sometimes - probably more political than anything else - a player carried by his defensive skillset does get in.

    For example, if I asked you which of these three players is NOT a Hall of Famer:

    Player A: Played 23 seasons and had a career OPS+ of 105
    Player B: Played 19 seasons with a career OPS+ of 87
    Player C: Played 15 years with a career OPS+ of 144

    You'd look at those number right away and say "Lance Berkman is the one not in the Hall of Fame, and he probably shouldn't be. And both Brooks Robinson and Ozzie Smith deserve it more because their defense made them both better overall players despite them both possessing offensive skills that were average or below average."

    Which, of course, is the correct answer. (And also I would be impressed with how quick you got it.)

    But when you also point out that several elite defensive players such as Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen and Omar Vizquel also failed to get into the Hall this year, and for all of them it was their 4th chance, while better hitters who couldn't field like Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, and Jim Thome were all elected over them, it does add a lot of merit to your point.

    Conclusion: If you are a great fielder who struggles at the plate, your chances are helped substantially if you can do back flips on the field...
    Jones and Rolen should get in. Vizquel should not.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Jones and Rolen should get in. Vizquel should not.
    I don't agree, but not unreasonable. I'd put Vizquel in, too...

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    I get your point, and the Hall has probably ignored some great defensive players with weak bats. But sometimes - probably more political than anything else - a player carried by his defensive skillset does get in.

    For example, if I asked you which of these three players is NOT a Hall of Famer:

    Player A: Played 23 seasons and had a career OPS+ of 105
    Player B: Played 19 seasons with a career OPS+ of 87
    Player C: Played 15 years with a career OPS+ of 144

    You'd look at those number right away and say "Lance Berkman is the one not in the Hall of Fame, and he probably shouldn't be. And both Brooks Robinson and Ozzie Smith deserve it more because their defense made them both better overall players despite them both possessing offensive skills that were average or below average."

    Which, of course, is the correct answer. (And also I would be impressed with how quick you got it.)

    But when you also point out that several elite defensive players such as Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen and Omar Vizquel also failed to get into the Hall this year, and for all of them it was their 4th chance, while better hitters who couldn't field like Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, and Jim Thome were all elected over them, it does add a lot of merit to your point...
    Maybe the best examples to compare and contrast for Sox fans -- before modern times for most posters -- are two outfielders who played together: Jim Rice and Dwight Evans. I'm sure someone more stat savvy than me can find numbers to prove Rice deserves to be in the Hall, while Evans does not. But I do know their careers are close - Rice 47.7 WAR, .854 OPS vs. Evans 67.1 WAR, .840 OPS.

    Defensively, it is no contest: Dewey was the best rightfielder in the AL for a decade, while Rice was never considered above-average (but he practiced to learn how to play the Monster, just like Evans practiced to become the slugger that led the AL in extra-base hits in the 1980s).

    This might be a good poll for old fans who watched the entire careers of Rice and Evans: who was the better all-around player?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    Maybe the best examples to compare and contrast for Sox fans -- before modern times for most posters -- are two outfielders who played together: Jim Rice and Dwight Evans. I'm sure someone more stat savvy than me can find numbers to prove Rice deserves to be in the Hall, while Evans does not. But I do know their careers are close - Rice 47.7 WAR, .854 OPS vs. Evans 67.1 WAR, .840 OPS.

    Defensively, it is no contest: Dewey was the best rightfielder in the AL for a decade, while Rice was never considered above-average (but he practiced to learn how to play the Monster, just like Evans practiced to become the slugger that led the AL in extra-base hits in the 1980s).

    This might be a good poll for old fans who watched the entire careers of Rice and Evans: who was the better all-around player?
    Despite their close career numbers, Rice was the better hitter. I look at Rice as the hitter you built a lineup around, and Evans as the guy you built around someone like Rice with. Evans was more well-rounded, but I like Rice better.

    Bu I still vote for Dewey to be in the Hall given the chance...

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Devers always starts off slow defensively and offensively. Just need to get through April and he'll turn it around.
    He struggled until mid-August last year!!!


  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Jones and Rolen should get in. Vizquel should not.
    So would you put Ozzie Smith in the Hall?

  9. #39
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    I don't agree, but not unreasonable. I'd put Vizquel in, too...
    Nomar, Rollins, Tejada, Tony Fernandez all belong in the HOF before Vizquel.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    So would you put Ozzie Smith in the Hall?
    Ozzie Smith: bWAR 76.9, WAA 42, 15 ASG
    Vizquel: bWAR 45.6, WAA 5.3, 3 ASG

    Yeah, Smith is in. Those two are NOT comparable.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Despite their close career numbers, Rice was the better hitter. I look at Rice as the hitter you built a lineup around, and Evans as the guy you built around someone like Rice with. Evans was more well-rounded, but I like Rice better.

    Bu I still vote for Dewey to be in the Hall given the chance...
    Dewey should be in. At his peak, Jim Rice was one of the top 2-3 players in the game. Evans never reached those heights, but was solid for a long time.
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  12. #42
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    Tony Gwynn: 69.2 bWAR, OPS+ 132
    Dwight Evans: 67.1 bWAR, OPS+ 127
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    ( I won't say the "C word.")

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    Despite their close career numbers, Rice was the better hitter. I look at Rice as the hitter you built a lineup around, and Evans as the guy you built around someone like Rice with. Evans was more well-rounded, but I like Rice better.

    Bu I still vote for Dewey to be in the Hall given the chance...
    In his peak, Rice was a HOF hitter. He was probably the most feared man in the batter's box in the AL, and guys like Hawk Harrelson spread his legend about check-swing broken bats and full-swing snapped golf clubs. I think it was said Rice could drive a golf ball further than anyone on the pro circuit.

    Evans had a slightly longer career, so it only seemed he was more productive -- 385 HRs to 382 for Rice. Evans was also a late-bloomer: 235 homers in his 30s; Rice had 145.

    As for Cooperstown consideration, Evans is an odd candidate: a Hall of Fame fielder in the '70s, and a Hall of Fame slugger in the '80s.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Nomar, Rollins, Tejada, Tony Fernandez all belong in the HOF before Vizquel.
    Fernandez over Vizquel?

    Career fWAR

    Fernandez - 43.5
    Vizquel - 42.5

    I am fine with using WAR as HOF selection criteria, but you appear to have a pretty hard line with those two.

    Also does that mean you think Jose Reyes (43.8 fWAR) belongs in ahead of Vizquel and Fernandez?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp 78 View Post
    Nomar, Rollins, Tejada, Tony Fernandez all belong in the HOF before Vizquel.
    And how does Tejada (39.7 fWAR) get ahead of Vizquel?

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