Well he doesn’t do anything to stop it, now does he?Originally Posted by Bellhorn04
Well he doesn’t do anything to stop it, now does he?
He's been cheap, until 2022. He's hit better than 75% of catchers.
He frames and throws well.
He blocks pitches well.
All this outweighs the other stuff. Same as Bogey at SS.
You guys act like I've been saying he should be benched or DFA'd.
I've never even said he should play less.
Stawmen.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Now, you are catching on.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
I don't think it's a straw man to say your adverse opinion of him and desire to replace him has a lot to do with CERA comparisons.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
Of course it does, but I have never said he should be benched or play less. The CERA issues have not tilted the balance enough, to me. Now that he will be making $7M, my opinion has changed.
Trading him makes sense.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
If CERA was as big a deal to the Red Sox as it is to you, they never would have let Leon go.
Me and MVP just think you make too much of it. The CERA comparisons with Vaz and Plawecki are all over the place. They scream randomness. There's nothing that shows Vaz isn't doing a good job 'handling the staff'.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
^^^
IMO, they kept Leon pretty long as a testament to his value as a catcher who maximizes pitcher results. They certainly did not keep him for his hitting.
Plus, he started making about $2M a year, and they probably felt they could find a defensive catcher for cheaper. Now, Plawecki is getting near $2M and Vaz makes $7M, so let's see how they handle this.
My comps between Vaz and whoever his back-up were are not "all over the place." I keep a consistent min sample size requirement that both catcher must reach to make the study. I compare pitcher by pitcher, which is how it is supposed to be done to take our unbalanced sample sizes, and I go over every year since Vaz has been our catcher.
Yes, there is randomness. I have never claimed the numbers are all tied to pitcher-catcher relations, but when every single season shows 70-80% of the pitchers who meet the min requirements do better and many times much better with the catcher not named Vaz, I think it has meaning.
Then, I never said that "meaning" supersedes or should supersede all other factors in valuing a catcher. I have never called for making Vaz the back-up.
You guys are blowing up the significance I place on CERA and COPS data. I am merely saying it should be part of the placing value matrix, along with contract cost, offense and other defensive values.
There is a lot of data that shows Vaz is not handling the staff as well as his back-up. That's not the same as saying he sucks handling the staff- just that he has not been as good as the other catcher. If Leon was great- maybe Vaz was still good.
You can choose to deny it or try to misuse overall CERA data all you want, but facts are facts.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Use of CERA at all is misusing it. It is a stat with no value. Even you said it fraught with randomness.
You're misreading what I said. I meant the 2021 data is all over the place.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
Every stats is. It doesn't make them all meaningless.
You don't think the fact that 75% of all pitchers have done better with Vaz's back up over a 6 or 7 year sample size has any meaning or value?
It's even more pronounced in pitchers with hundreds of IP'd with 2+ catchers- sometimes a 1.00 or 1.50+ disparity.
It's like saying less runs allowed with JBJ in the OF vs JD is totally random and meaningless.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
He's only caught 500 innings with the Sox. How many pitchers have worked with him for "HUNDREDS" of innings. At most, it would be 2.
Even then, you'd need to account for opposing lineups which would bring that already SSS even more meaningless.
I'm talking about Vazquez and all the sample sizes that total in the hundreds for 2 or more Sox catchers- career sample sizes with 100+ IP with 2+ catchers. Here are a few:
Price:
4.27 Vaz (360 IP)
2.96 Leon (204)
Sale
4.03 Vaz (114 IP)
2.79 Leon (435)
2.51 AJ P (226)
Porcello
4.96 Vaz (211 IP)
4.19 Leon (577)
4.93 Swihart (122)
ERod
4.22 Vaz (603)
4.05 Leon (118)
Buchholz
4.44 Vaz (130)
2.83 VMart (241)
3.01 Leon (155)
3.95 Salty (207)
5.12 VTek (118)
These are NOT SSS.
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Do you account for opposing pitchers and team defenses when comparing OPS between Betts and Verdugo?
When you say it's gonna happen now
When exactly do you mean?
Some of those numbers are really old.
So you're not allowing for improvement by Vaz.
Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1
The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.
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