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Thread: 10/8 ALDS Game 2 @ Rays

  1. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch View Post
    Exactly, he punted the game
    It was 8-6 in the 7th inning when Wacha came in. That’s like punting on 3rd and 2…

  2. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonianmarch View Post
    Exactly, he punted the game
    If he did in fact then I would be furious if I were a Rays fan. As it stands.. don’t care.

  3. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    A few things on Sale:

    I have lost confidence, too, so I'm not arguing pitching him game 4 or 5.

    His 6 BBs in his last 13 IP of the regular season were telling. He had 6 BBs in his first 30 IP of 2021.

    What seems strange to me is the K numbers. Every out in that game vs the Nats was a K (7 out of 7 outs.). The last 2 games of the 2019 season- before his surgery- he K'd 25 in 14.2 IP. That one lone start he got in AUG of 2018, he K'd 12 in 5 IP (0 BB). I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it seems like something is mixed up. Maybe he's trying too hard for the K, and bad things happen.

    Sale had a 4.97 ERA over his last 3 games of 2021. While that is not good, it is better than some other choices, and he was yanked very early vs the Nats (2 ER in 2.1 IP). While there is no sugar coating that start, I'm not sure we can read too much into it, by itself. It's the next start right afterwards that blew my confidence in him out of the water. That was just scary bad. The 2Ks in 3 outs could not put a dent in the fact that he sucked.

    Now, the whole sucks in the playoffs thing. Yes, he has declined at the ends of most of his seasons, and that raises durability and stamina issues, but that should not be in play, this year. He also only started 4 playoff games, before this year, so I'm not sure we can read too much into that, since his "bad playoff numbers" were highly influenced by his first playoff series in 2017 (9.2 IP 9 ER). in 2018, he pitched 15.1 IP, some in relief as most Sox starters did that year, and allowed just 11 hits. The 8 BBs were bad, but once again we see a very high K rate of 24Ks in 15.1 IP. That's 14 K/9 IP. Once again, I ask, is he trying to K batters too much in big games? The 7 ERs allowed in those 15.1 IP amounts to a 4.11 ERA, which does not look great, but certainly is not bad, when you figure those games were against the Yanks, Astros and Dodgers.

    Again, I'm not defending Sale, but I'm not going to definitively judge him based on 5 playoff starts.
    Well reasoned. I'm arguing from a sense of disappointment in Sale overall. He is the very model of an ace--very professional, great presence on the mound, good command, and good stuff-- but to me he has not delivered, especially late in the season, the way other Sox aces have. Your point about his K's is fascinating--especially the Nats game last Sunday.

    I'm convinced he's lost his changeup, which gets him down to just two pitches, four seamer and slider, against all those righty bats.

  4. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    A few things on Sale:

    I have lost confidence, too, so I'm not arguing pitching him game 4 or 5.

    His 6 BBs in his last 13 IP of the regular season were telling. He had 6 BBs in his first 30 IP of 2021.

    What seems strange to me is the K numbers. Every out in that game vs the Nats was a K (7 out of 7 outs.). The last 2 games of the 2019 season- before his surgery- he K'd 25 in 14.2 IP. That one lone start he got in AUG of 2018, he K'd 12 in 5 IP (0 BB). I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it seems like something is mixed up. Maybe he's trying too hard for the K, and bad things happen.

    Sale had a 4.97 ERA over his last 3 games of 2021. While that is not good, it is better than some other choices, and he was yanked very early vs the Nats (2 ER in 2.1 IP). While there is no sugar coating that start, I'm not sure we can read too much into it, by itself. It's the next start right afterwards that blew my confidence in him out of the water. That was just scary bad. The 2Ks in 3 outs could not put a dent in the fact that he sucked.

    Now, the whole sucks in the playoffs thing. Yes, he has declined at the ends of most of his seasons, and that raises durability and stamina issues, but that should not be in play, this year. He also only started 4 playoff games, before this year, so I'm not sure we can read too much into that, since his "bad playoff numbers" were highly influenced by his first playoff series in 2017 (9.2 IP 9 ER). in 2018, he pitched 15.1 IP, some in relief as most Sox starters did that year, and allowed just 11 hits. The 8 BBs were bad, but once again we see a very high K rate of 24Ks in 15.1 IP. That's 14 K/9 IP. Once again, I ask, is he trying to K batters too much in big games? The 7 ERs allowed in those 15.1 IP amounts to a 4.11 ERA, which does not look great, but certainly is not bad, when you figure those games were against the Yanks, Astros and Dodgers.

    Again, I'm not defending Sale, but I'm not going to definitively judge him based on 5 playoff starts.

    Right now I’m only judging Sale on his last two games, and I’ve seen enough for him not to start again in this series.

  5. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Red View Post
    Right now I’m only judging Sale on his last two games, and I’ve seen enough for him not to start again in this series.
    I doubt that anyone on talksox wants Sale to start game 5.

  6. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxbialystock View Post
    Well reasoned. I'm arguing from a sense of disappointment in Sale overall. He is the very model of an ace--very professional, great presence on the mound, good command, and good stuff-- but to me he has not delivered, especially late in the season, the way other Sox aces have. Your point about his K's is fascinating--especially the Nats game last Sunday.

    I'm convinced he's lost his changeup, which gets him down to just two pitches, four seamer and slider, against all those righty bats.
    Well said.

    I would not start Sale game 4 or 5.

    I might try him in relief in a low leverage situation, if we get one.
    Sox 4 Ever

  7. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxbialystock View Post
    I doubt that anyone on talksox wants Sale to start game 5.
    Maybe the Yankee fan or Storktroll.
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  8. #623
    Oh yeah, the manager punted. Happens all the time, especially in 5-game series. One game? Doesn't mean crap when you only have to win 3. If it were 7 games, doubtless he would have punted two or three.
    "Fans have become more entitled than anything. So they're starting to question our motives for the game, or how we approach the game. The ones that do question -- like who are you? Just shut up and watch the game tonight." --Kevin Durant on players' lack of effort in regular season games.

  9. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by jad View Post
    Oh yeah, the manager punted. Happens all the time, especially in 5-game series. One game? Doesn't mean crap when you only have to win 3. If it were 7 games, doubtless he would have punted two or three.
    I think you are exaggerating, but I agree with the premise that normally, usually you don't want to give away games in the playoffs.

    That said, however, in 2007 Francona sort of did that. The Sox were down 2-1 to the Indians in the ALCS, and there were those who said he should start his ace, Beckett in game 4 with just 4 days rest. But Francona reasoned that, since a game 5 was guaranteed, he would rather let Beckett start game 5 fully rested. The Sox did in fact lose game 4, went down 3-1 to the Indians, and still pulled out the ALCS by winning three straight.

  10. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxbialystock View Post
    I think you are exaggerating, but I agree with the premise that normally, usually you don't want to give away games in the playoffs.

    That said, however, in 2007 Francona sort of did that. The Sox were down 2-1 to the Indians in the ALCS, and there were those who said he should start his ace, Beckett in game 4 with just 4 days rest. But Francona reasoned that, since a game 5 was guaranteed, he would rather let Beckett start game 5 fully rested. The Sox did in fact lose game 4, went down 3-1 to the Indians, and still pulled out the ALCS by winning three straight.
    Of course! NO ONE 'punts' a game in a short series. Fans and fantasy players, maybe. But not pro athletes and managers.
    "Fans have become more entitled than anything. So they're starting to question our motives for the game, or how we approach the game. The ones that do question -- like who are you? Just shut up and watch the game tonight." --Kevin Durant on players' lack of effort in regular season games.

  11. #626
    Deity Bellhorn04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jad View Post
    Of course! NO ONE 'punts' a game in a short series. Fans and fantasy players, maybe. But not pro athletes and managers.
    Cash didn't punt Game 2. But you might say he "threw in the towel" leaving Wacha in as long as he did.
    Championships since purchase by John Henry group: Red Sox 4 Yankees 1

    The Red Sox are 8-1 in their last 9 postseason games against the Yankees.

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