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Thread: The 2021-2022 Offseason Thread

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    If this is indeed Accurate ? That’s his Rutter folks without the Rutter you have zero control. I would like to strike my trade Matt Until further evaluation in spring .....ouch and ouch for this years team.My my what could have been .Shiiiiiit

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    I remember reading that, but then they activated him and Barnes pitched an inning in the ALDS. I just found it odd that never during the many shaky Red Sox playoff relief outings -- including their first two losses to Houston -- did any uniformed personnel publicly lament missing their All-Star closer. Maybe it was because of his performance in the second half?

    Btw: Barnes leads the AL in blown saves the past three years with 18. Ottavino is second with 16. Liam Hendriks is next with 14, followed by Taylor Rogers 12, then Chapman and four others with 11.

    For what it's worth: Hendriks leads the AL with 77 saves in that span, and Chapman is second with 70. Barnes is 10th with 37, one behind Hansel Robles (and his 8 blown saves).

    So, from 2019-2021, Barnes has 37 saves with 18 blown saves... For those pining for Rasiel Iglesias in '22: 34 saves with only 5 blown saves the last three years.
    Last edited by 5GoldGloves:OF,75; 10-24-2021 at 08:12 PM.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    I remember reading that, but then they activated him and Barnes pitched an inning in the ALDS. I just found it odd that never during the many shaky Red Sox playoff relief outings -- including their first two losses to Houston -- did any uniformed personnel publicly lament missing their All-Star closer. Maybe it was because of his performance in the second half?

    Btw: Barnes leads the AL in blown saves the past three years with 18. Ottavino is second with 16. Liam Hendriks is next with 14, followed by Taylor Rogers 12, then Chapman and four others with 11.

    For what it's worth: Hendriks leads the AL with 77 saves in that span, and Chapman is second with 70. Barnes is 10th with 37, one behind Hansel Robles (and his 8 blown saves).

    So, from 2019-2021, Barnes has 37 saves with 18 blown saves... For those pining for Rasiel Iglesias in '22: 34 saves with only 5 blown saves the last three years.
    Yikes yeah we can do better that Matt .But how does that look like ? Demote him to low leverage ?or trade to a team like the Rockies or Marlins with The thought of less pressure cooker City ? Iíd atleast start calling these type teams .

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post
    He just signed a multimillion dollar deal. One would think he could afford freakiní Door Dash!!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    I remember reading that, but then they activated him and Barnes pitched an inning in the ALDS. I just found it odd that never during the many shaky Red Sox playoff relief outings -- including their first two losses to Houston -- did any uniformed personnel publicly lament missing their All-Star closer. Maybe it was because of his performance in the second half?

    Btw: Barnes leads the AL in blown saves the past three years with 18. Ottavino is second with 16. Liam Hendriks is next with 14, followed by Taylor Rogers 12, then Chapman and four others with 11.

    For what it's worth: Hendriks leads the AL with 77 saves in that span, and Chapman is second with 70. Barnes is 10th with 37, one behind Hansel Robles (and his 8 blown saves).

    So, from 2019-2021, Barnes has 37 saves with 18 blown saves... For those pining for Rasiel Iglesias in '22: 34 saves with only 5 blown saves the last three years.
    A little misleading. And by “a little” I mean “very”.

    In the last 3 seasons, Rasiel Iglesias has 13 blown saves per Fangraphs. He also has 76 saves. Were you looking at AL only? Iglesias’ 34 saves / 5 blown saves represent his totals from 2021 alone.

    Also worth noting, unlike everyone else in this post, Barnes was not a full time closer for the last 3 seasons. You can only get a save if you pitch the last inning; you can get a blown save in any inning after the 5th. Barnes has 30 holds in that stretch and Iglesias has 5.

    So really, Barnes has 67 saves plus holds to 18 blown saves. Iglesias has 81 saves plus holds to 13 blown saves. That certainly narrows the gap between the two..
    Last edited by notin; 10-24-2021 at 11:18 PM.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by notin View Post
    A little misleading. And by “a little” I mean “very”.

    In the last 3 seasons, Rasiel Iglesias has 13 blown saves per Fangraphs. He also has 76 saves. Were you looking at AL only? Iglesias’ 34 saves / 5 blown saves represent his totals from 2021 alone.

    Also worth noting, unlike everyone else in this post, Barnes was not a full time closer for the last 3 seasons. You can only get a save if you pitch the last inning; you can get a blown save in any inning after the 5th. Barnes has 30 holds in that stretch and Iglesias has 5.

    So really, Barnes has 67 saves plus holds to 18 blown saves. Iglesias has 81 saves plus holds to 13 blown saves. That certainly narrows the gap between the two..
    The numbers posted were straight from bb-ref's Stathead for saves and blown saves AL 2019-21. Barnes was certainly the Red Sox closer the past two seasons, and briefly in 2019, when he began as Cora's go-to in any high leverage relief inning before inconsistencies plagued him after only two months.

    I could care less about Rasiel, and just added his stats for perspective since his name has been coming up here. But I'd take his 76 saves vs. 13 blown over a guy who blows the lead in 50% of his outings (whenever he enters the game).

    I get the point about the terminology, but wasn't personally trying to mislead. The stat sites label them "saves" and "blown saves", but there are no "let-go's" to counter "holds".
    Last edited by 5GoldGloves:OF,75; 10-25-2021 at 05:24 AM. Reason: semantics

  7. #37
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    The numbers posted were straight from bb-ref's Stathead for saves and blown saves AL 2019-21. Barnes was certainly the Red Sox closer the past two seasons, and briefly in 2019, when he began as Cora's go-to in any high leverage relief inning before inconsistencies plagued him after only two months.

    I could care less about Rasiel, and just added his stats for perspective since his name has been coming up here. But I'd take his 76 saves vs. 13 blown over a guy who blows the lead in 50% of his outings (whenever he enters the game).

    I get the point about the terminology, but wasn't personally trying to mislead. The stat sites label them "saves" and "blown saves", but there are no "let-go's" to counter "holds".
    Barnes does not blow the lead in half his games.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    I get the point about the terminology, but wasn't personally trying to mislead. The stat sites label them "saves" and "blown saves", but there are no "let-go's" to counter "holds".
    As we've said here numerous times, it's a big problem with those stats.

    "Let-go's" isn't bad, though.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    The numbers posted were straight from bb-ref's Stathead for saves and blown saves AL 2019-21. Barnes was certainly the Red Sox closer the past two seasons, and briefly in 2019, when he began as Cora's go-to in any high leverage relief inning before inconsistencies plagued him after only two months.

    I could care less about Rasiel, and just added his stats for perspective since his name has been coming up here. But I'd take his 76 saves vs. 13 blown over a guy who blows the lead in 50% of his outings (whenever he enters the game).

    I get the point about the terminology, but wasn't personally trying to mislead. The stat sites label them "saves" and "blown saves", but there are no "let-go's" to counter "holds".
    You're still tying to mislead. Even if you use your old numbers, 37 saves and 18 blown saves is closer to 30%. But a lot of his blown saves were really "blown holds," but no stat sites differentiate between the two. As Barnes spent most of 2018 pitching in situations where he was not going to get a save but was able to get a blown save, the overall statement is misleading.

    Iglesias did do better than Barnes, blowing 14% of all save/hold opportunities. But Barnes actually rate was 24% of all save/hold chances blown. Less than the 32% if you only look at saves, and certainly less than the 50% which is just flat out wrong no matter how you look at it.

    Of course, there are other aspects that are incorrect, too. 1) How many blown saves did the Sox still win? Blown saves are not all losses, after all. And how many were blown saves where Barnes did nothing wrong? Coming in with the tying run on third and no one out and giving up a sac fly is a blown save, but is it really the fault of the pitcher getting the blown save?

  10. #40
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    This year, Barnes had 30 saves and 6 BSs. 24/30. He had no "holds." (33% IRS)
    2020: 9 Saves and 4 BS (4 holds) 13 SV+Hold/17. 0% IRS.
    2019: 4 Saves and 8 BS (26 holds) 30 Sv + Holds/38. 25% IRS.
    2018: 0 Sv and 3 BS. (25 Holds) 25 Sv + Holds/28. 7% IRS
    2017: 1 Sv and 2 BS (21 Holds) 22 SV+Holds/24. 17% IRS

    Last 5 years:
    44 saves
    23 BS
    76 Holds

    120 Sv + Holds out of 143.

    That's 84% of the time holding or saving the games he played in since 2017 and entered with a lead or tie.
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  11. #41
    I'm not trying to mislead. Although admittedly, when I look at data, I am often misled. Statistically, in the past three years, Matt Barnes has twice as many saves as blown saves. There are many AL relief pitchers during that span that have better ratios for those two categories that include the word "save" in their labels.

    Number guys can defend him all day with quantitative data. But is it that unlikely that qualitative data was also involved when it was determined by management and the front office that Barnes can't be trusted to close games down the stretch this year?

  12. #42
    Deity moonslav59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    I'm not trying to mislead. Although admittedly, when I look at data, I am often misled. Statistically, in the past three years, Matt Barnes has twice as many saves as blown saves. There are many AL relief pitchers during that span that have better ratios for those two categories that include the word "save" in their labels.

    Number guys can defend him all day with quantitative data. But is it that unlikely that qualitative data was also involved when it was determined by management and the front office that Barnes can't be trusted to close games down the stretch this year?
    He imploded, for some reason.

    He was Koji-esque for a 2-3 months before imploding.

    I have no idea what to expect in 2022.
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  13. #43
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    I'm not in favor of signing an old, expensive pitcher. Scherzer has a tired, dead arm and can't start with his club facing elimination. He won't be any younger a year from now.
    I agree on Scherzer. It's going to be a lot of money and his much more prone to breaking down and ineffectiveness as he ages. One day, his stuff will just fall off the cliff.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5GoldGloves:OF,75 View Post
    I'm not trying to mislead. Although admittedly, when I look at data, I am often misled. Statistically, in the past three years, Matt Barnes has twice as many saves as blown saves. There are many AL relief pitchers during that span that have better ratios for those two categories that include the word "save" in their labels.

    Number guys can defend him all day with quantitative data. But is it that unlikely that qualitative data was also involved when it was determined by management and the front office that Barnes can't be trusted to close games down the stretch this year?
    They may or may not use Barnes in that role. but his pre-finger slice 2021 was actually quite stellar.

    It's really going to come down to how Houck and Whitlock are used. If both stay in the pen (my choice), then one probably handles the closing/high leverage and the other, along with Taylor, Barnes, Brasier, Sawamura, and maybe Valdez and/or Darwinzon Hernandez can give the Sox what looks like it could be a pretty formidable bullpen. But if one or both move to the rotation, then it puts question marks potentially all over the staff, including in the closing/high leverage role, where Barnes certainly remains a candidate.

    (Of course, not all question marks are answered negatively.)

  15. #45
    TalkSox Ascended Master mvp 78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellhorn04 View Post
    It's going to be another interesting one. But once again we better be prepared to be patient. Bloom is not exactly a rapid-fire wheeler-dealer.
    Especially considering the situation with the CBA. The only thing we'll know in the near future is about opt outs and QO's.

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