The 2021-2022 Offseason Thread

[dgalehouse]

I don't agree that having great success leads to a "cliff" . After three terrific seasons , Dombrowski got a little complacent and let the bullpen deteriorate. Then came injuries and underperformance of key starting pitchers . A predictable ( to me ) poor season was the result. Apparently, that was reason to fire Dombrowski and to trade away our best player. It is hard to evaluate the disaster that was 2020, as that was an extremely bizarre season. This season , the Sox got back on the right track. There was no "cliff" . There was no " boom and bust " . That was always nonsense. And , " sustainable " is just another trendy buzzword. Continual success requires work and diligence every year.

[notin]

I don't agree that having great success leads to a "cliff" . After three terrific seasons , Dombrowski got a little complacent and let the bullpen deteriorate. Then came injuries and underperformance of key starting pitchers . A predictable ( to me ) poor season was the result. Apparently, that was reason to fire Dombrowski and to trade away our best player. It is hard to evaluate the disaster that was 2020, as that was an extremely bizarre season. This season , the Sox got back on the right track. There was no "cliff" . There was no " boom and bust " . That was always nonsense. And , " sustainable " is just another trendy buzzword. Continual success requires work and diligence every year.

It also requires financial flexibility and the ability to make key changes.

Look at the run the Yankees made from 1996 through 2001 - a stretch of only 6 seasons. The only players there for all six years were Jeter, Bernie, Tino, Posada, Pettitte and Rivera. Only six seasons, but only two pitchers were there.

That 1996 team had Kenny Rogers and Jimmy Key as the pitchers behind Pettitte. They had Rivera, but he wasn’t the closer.

The rest of the team turned over a lot and turned over a lot.

They also maintained the highest payroll in MLB to make that success happen, and were carried by a bunch of farm system players. They didn’t bring in anyone on any sort of crazy 7 year $200 mill contract and watch them age out of usefulness.

But they had the guts/brains to sell high on David Wells, held on to their younger players and rearranged a lot of seats.

The 2018 Red Sox were never in a position to replicate that. It’s not just about “hard work.” No amount of diligence from DD was going to keep Price effective, and no amount was going to lower his costs or increase their flexibility.

“Sustainability” is not a buzzword; it’s a plan.

[moonslav59]

And they were right?

The last one was wrong, for sure. We've finished in last place many times and had many disappointing seasons, like 2019, where we spent a ton and did way under expectations.

The second one: we have rebuilt faster than I thought we could, so maybe they were partially right, but we are not a top tier farm, now.

Henry can spend more, but he doesn't often enough.

[moonslav59]

I don't live in California, but can only assume fans there were glad when the Dodgers signed the NL Cy Young last winter, and then made the blockbuster of all deadline deals in July. Most pundits predicted LA to repeat as world champs even before these moves, but imagine the outlook when they were still celebrating a year ago if someone said, "And next year, you're going to add Trevor Bauer, Max Scherzer and Trea Turner!"

And the Dodgers didn't even make it back to the World Series.

I think Dodger fans are still happy with their team and GM.

[moonslav59]

I don't agree that having great success leads to a "cliff" . After three terrific seasons , Dombrowski got a little complacent and let the bullpen deteriorate. Then came injuries and underperformance of key starting pitchers . A predictable ( to me ) poor season was the result. Apparently, that was reason to fire Dombrowski and to trade away our best player. It is hard to evaluate the disaster that was 2020, as that was an extremely bizarre season. This season , the Sox got back on the right track. There was no "cliff" . There was no " boom and bust " . That was always nonsense. And , " sustainable " is just another trendy buzzword. Continual success requires work and diligence every year.

Scoreboard, dude.

[Bellhorn04]

To me the bad periods are measured by how many years in a row you miss the playoffs. Since 2003 here are the years we've missed:

2010-2012 3
2014-2015 2
2019-2020 2

[moonslav59]

It also requires financial flexibility and the ability to make key changes.

Look at the run the Yankees made from 1996 through 2001 - a stretch of only 6 seasons. The only players there for all six years were Jeter, Bernie, Tino, Posada, Pettitte and Rivera. Only six seasons, but only two pitchers were there.

That 1996 team had Kenny Rogers and Jimmy Key as the pitchers behind Pettitte. They had Rivera, but he wasn’t the closer.

The rest of the team turned over a lot and turned over a lot.

They also maintained the highest payroll in MLB to make that success happen, and were carried by a bunch of farm system players. They didn’t bring in anyone on any sort of crazy 7 year $200 mill contract and watch them age out of usefulness.

But they had the guts/brains to sell high on David Wells, held on to their younger players and rearranged a lot of seats.

The 2018 Red Sox were never in a position to replicate that. It’s not just about “hard work.” No amount of diligence from DD was going to keep Price effective, and no amount was going to lower his costs or increase their flexibility.

“Sustainability” is not a buzzword; it’s a plan.

Well said, and it's easy to get side-tracked or want to make a bigger push (at the expense of the future) when you feel so close, but it's also hard to sustain a highly competitive team that wins a ring, eventually.

[moonslav59]

That 5 out of 6 stretch was tough, but going into many of those seasons, I felt pretty good about the roster.

I think that makes a difference, to me, especially in terms of judging our GMs.

[Nick]

I think Dodger fans are still happy with their team and GM.

As years go by, last year's win will be viewed as the cheapest championship ever won. I have no respect for them for winning.

[moonslav59]

As years go by, last year's win will be viewed as the cheapest championship ever won. I have no respect for them for winning.

I don't take many points off. The playoffs were still the playoffs, and a the Dodgers would certainly have made the playoffs in a 162 game season, too.

It is what it is.

Put the asterisk, if you must, but many seasons were marred by shortened seasons and messed up planning around them.

To me, they earned it, but I can understand your view.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

I don't take many points off. The playoffs were still the playoffs, and a the Dodgers would certainly have made the playoffs in a 162 game season, too.

It is what it is.

Put the asterisk, if you must, but many seasons were marred by shortened seasons and messed up planning around them.

To me, they earned it, but I can understand your view.

With the expanded playoffs in 2020, the Dodgers had to win a record 13 postseason games to earn their rings.

[moonslav59]

With the expanded playoffs in 2020, the Dodgers had to win a record 13 postseason games to earn their rings.

While that may not make up for missing 100 games in the season, the Dodgers were the best team, and they won a long post season.

[mvp 78]

I don't agree that having great success leads to a "cliff" . After three terrific seasons , Dombrowski got a little complacent and let the bullpen deteriorate. Then came injuries and underperformance of key starting pitchers . A predictable ( to me ) poor season was the result. Apparently, that was reason to fire Dombrowski and to trade away our best player. It is hard to evaluate the disaster that was 2020, as that was an extremely bizarre season. This season , the Sox got back on the right track. There was no "cliff" . There was no " boom and bust " . That was always nonsense. And , " sustainable " is just another trendy buzzword. Continual success requires work and diligence every year.

The real problem with the cliff theory is twofold:

(1) ownership CHOSE to get under the cap by any means necessary, which amounted them to dumping Betts and fielding an uncompetitive pitching rotation for one year

(2) in the real world, a cliff generally leads to an extended valley (and posters that were proponents of the idea stated that the Sox would have a few down years) but this Sox team had one bad season and then was in the ALCS the following year which is more of a "blip" than a "cliff" IMO

[mvp 78]

To me the bad periods are measured by how many years in a row you miss the playoffs. Since 2003 here are the years we've missed:

2010-2012 3
2014-2015 2
2019-2020 2

14-15 really sucked, but it came right after a WS win. I think the stretch from 10-12 was more frustrating as 2010 was a completely lost and middling season. The only part I remember about it was Ryan Kalish (a guy who only OPS'd 88+). The following year was touted as "the greatest Sox team of all time" but they just squandered all that away down the stretch with a brutal September that caused Theo and Tito to be rushed out the back door. 2012 was notable only for a ST where Pedro Ciriaco the standout player and Bobby V slowly steered the ship towards an oncoming iceberg that everyone saw from miles and miles away.

[5GoldGloves:OF,75]

this Sox team had one bad season and then was in the ALCS the following year which is more of a "blip" than a "cliff" IMO

The blip was Rudolph's nose in the fog, but then Christmas morning came and they unwrapped new reindeer games.